I completely forgot about Derek…what was the point of all that?
I feel like your posts are being way too black and white about this topic. Sylvanas is responsible for killing them. The jailer is responsible for torturing and double-killing some of them. They’re both bad, and the jailer having a part in it isn’t absolving Sylvanas of the part she’s playing.
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Well, the way she worded it made it sound like killing someone or a group of people is just fine as long as you don’t send them to the maw and torture them.
The Burning of Teldrassil and the War of Thorns was bad enough without the maw part already, before we even knew about the maw.
I didn’t read that in her post at all. I really think you’re just worrying yourself into a panic with worst case scenarios.
Which, to be fair, I get. BFA was a big poopoo. I went in without even bottom-of-the-barrel expectations and Blizzard dug to the center of the earth. And I get not trusting Blizzard’s words either. But my reading of Kaileena’s posts is that both are to blame, not just one or the other.
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Tbf Kaileena is reading like a Sylvanas Simp
Well before SL, I thought that the worst thing that could happen would the Night Elf souls being obliterated after their torture and guess what… also that Sylvanas would get away with everything and now Danuser basically confirmed a redemption…
I don’t know how low I have to set my bars for them to match the current writing quality. I guess I’m supposed to assume that Tyrande will die in the most boring and meaningless way possible, similar to Tirion probably. Maybe even victim blame her a little bit?
I can agree with both being responsible, but I still think Sylvanas has more to answer for when it comes to the Night Elves and Tyrande. And I’m also still convinced that the jailer was introduced as a scapegoat so that Sylvanas could get away with it.
That’s not what I saw. They looked like they were being guarded or tortured. I saw no one being forged.
No one is denying that it was bad. NO ONE!!! This is you picking and choosing what you want to see instead of what someone is actually saying.
Again, no one said it wasn’t bad. I know I didn’t.
He his responsible for everyone since Legion going to the Maw because the was his doing. As for the Night Elves on Teldrassil, it’s both of them. Which is why I said…
Again, your ignoring what someone is saying and picking out only what you want to see. Did you not see where I said…
That right there is holding them accountable! I shouldn’t even need to say that “the horde did something bad”. Calling what they did a genocide, which it was, does exactly that! Unbelievable…
It’s not shifting blame, it’s put blame on EVERYONE responsible and that includes the Jailor. There is no way around that.
Correct. And if they Jailer hadn’t did what he did this souls wound be where they are supposed to be. But the Jailer did in fact break the machine of death sending EVERYONE to the Maw and Sylvanas killed the Kaldorei knowing they wound go to the Maw. There is more than enough blame to go around. Please connect the dots.
No I didn’t. You’re being disingenuous once again.
And you won’t find that there either. I shouldn’t have to keep harping on the fact that what she did was horrible. We all know it.
(Sarm, if you picked up any venom in the statement, it wasn’t directed at you.)
Spending the time to go “yeah but the Horde didn’t know about the Maw” just sounds like you’re making excuses for them whether you are or not. If I shoot someone in the head but I prove I wasn’t aware that a bullet to the skull kills people that doesn’t make what I did any less horrific.
That place in the maw is where souls are being forged into weapons for the Jailer, we learn that in the intro quest.
My complaint is that the Jailer is the one who will get ALL the blame, since a redemption was confirmed for Sylvanas and that she would still be part of the story going forward, so someone else will have to be blamed for all the irredeemable and gross things Sylvanas has done.
It was the same with the Horde in BfA, even Saurfang got to blame Sylvanas despite having planned and lead the whole genocide, and just because he didn’t burn Teldrassil doesn’t mean that commiting genocide in Darkshore and Ashenvale was okay.
It feels like they’re repeating the exact same thing with Sylvanas and the Jailer, and it annoys me quite a lot that this is the way they’re going to absolve Sylvanas of her crimes instead of having her actually be brought to justice or having her make it up to those she wronged.
I agree that the jailer also played a part, but not as big of a part as Sylvanas and it’s something that annoys me in general that you can commit as many crimes and genocides as you want as long as you have someone to blame for it.
Earlier I said that the Jailer didn’t do anything, I take that back but I’ll still say that the Jailer alone couldn’t have done any bad to the Night Elves. Instead it was Sylvanas and the Horde who made that possible. Then the jailer came in play.
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I might be presumptuous with this post but since the topic of shifting blame has been mentioned a few times, it might be helpful to separate what’s actually being said from what people fear will happen.
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Ethriel fearing that Blizzard will shift the blame off of Sylvanas - I think this is a long shot but technically not invalid; they have the reins on the story to do whatever they want.
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Kaileena’s talking about sharing the blame between Sylvanas and the jailer, trying to assign what the two of them are responsible for.
- The jailer is responsible for redirecting all deaths to the maw.
- Sylvanas is responsible for mass murder, knowing where they go.
- The jailer is torturing those souls for power.
- Sylvanas is continuing to stand by his side as he does this.
Their blame doesn’t shift, it synergizes.
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Saying the horde didn’t know any the Maw does in no way absolve them of being genocidal murderers. If you can’t see that then that’s your problem not mine.
This is just ridiculous because we are not taking about killing someone we’re taking about what happens to them after they are dead. The murder isn’t responsible for that unless they had knowledge of that. Sylvanas and Nathanos did. The horde didn’t.
Furthermore I don’t like being put into a position to defend the horde. I’m a strick Night Elf fan but what I’m not going to do is misrepresented the facts in order to get my point across. That’s a waste of time.
I didn’t say he was the only one to blame, nor did anyone else. You’re trying to twist my words about what actuality has happened and who all is rightfully to blame into what you assume Blizz will eventually do. Your issue is with them not me. And I don’t remember reading anywhere where her redemption was confirmed either, but whatever.
In the case of Teldrassil they are both too blame but in the grand scheme of the universe and everyone that’s died since Legion, the Jailer has played a far larger role. Again, she killed them knowing they would go to the Maw and he is also responsible for them being in the Maw because he broke death.
You should have done that a while ago.
Sarm, you’re not being presumptuous and I appreciate you putting this in because it needed to be said.
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https://www.gamereactor.eu/wow-shadowlands-chains-of-domination-preview-and-interview/ It’s pretty openly stated in here, and that’s why I think that the Jailer will be used as a scapegoat to absolve Sylvanas of her crimes, just like Sylvanas was used as a scapegoat for the Horde and Saurfang.
In the grand scheme, but not in relation to the Night Elves. Sylvanas did more bad to them than the Jailer, the jailer without Sylvanas couldn’t have done anything to them.
That does not mean that the Jailer is not to blame at all, but it also doesn’t mean that Sylvanas should be able to say that “the jailer made me do it” in some crappy twist.
“It’s not my fault his Wife and kid can’t feed themselves anymore I didn’t know he was married when I killed him.”
That’s not openly stated. It’s not even implied. They openly state that
She still burned Teldrassil, she’s still guilty of many deaths, and she still has a lot to answer for. We’re not forgetting that and we won’t be giving Sylvanas a pass. When someone does what she did, it can’t be as simple as ‘oh, she did this one thing and now she’s redeemed’. That’s not the story we’re telling…
You need to start reading what people are actually writing. That’s said, I’m not going to continue to debate your skewed interpretations. It’s pointless and exhausting.
I can’t.
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You can’t because you’ve realized you’re wrong. Ignorance isn’t innocence. The Horde didn’t know about the Maw, that doesn’t make them not responsible for playing an active role in sending the Night Elves to it.
The Jailer put into motion all souls going to the maw, True. But he didn’t commit the act that sent the souls to the Shadowlands where he could siphon them into the Maw. The Horde did that. They’re equally responsible.
It basically says that she can do those two things and now she’s redeemed, and it also says that she’s going to be redeemed and not die at all, meaning that she’ll get even more spotlight after 9.1 and after Shadowlands. Her redemption will probably be something along the lines of helping us defeat the jailer and then leading the Horde again.
Since it’s realistically absolutely impossible to redeem her considering that those innocents she killed have already been obliterated, everything is going to end up being the Jailer’s fault. And the Jailer alone.
It honestly just annoys me how the resolution / justice plot for Teldrassil has turned out, nothing else. With the obliteration of the souls and a redemption of those responsible.
They are in fact guilty of killing them and subsequently sending them to the Maw. But they are not responsible for the Maw or what happens there or why the Night Elves have been incorrectly sent there in the first place, nor did they know that was going to happen. That’s not on them. They are responsible for the genocide and that’s it. If they killed the Kaldorei knowing full well that they were going to the Maw to be tortured for eternity, only then would they share blame on what’s been happening in the Shadowlands but that’s not the case. They have no control over where someone is sent in the Shadowlands.
Had death not been broken and the genocide still happened the Kaldorei would have had a peaceful existence in the Shadowlands with Elune or in Ardenweald. So in this situation, would the Horde be responsible for their peaceful afterlife and their deaths?
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This game makes us write weird sentences.
The interview quote, if we’re to take it seriously, is saying the complete opposite. That she has a lot to answer for, she will not be given a pass, and that redemption (if it happens) isn’t going to be something easily delivered.
The only part of your reading I agree on is that it doesn’t sound like she’ll be dying in the 9.1 patch.
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It does doesn’t it.
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There isn’t really an “if it happens” there, and we know how nuanced Blizzard can write their stories. I don’t really want to spend the rest of the expansion glorifying Sylvanas either, where is our resolution that we were promised? Is Tyrande just going to be forgotten about again or killed off?
It also means that she won’t get out of the story either after SL it seems like, most likely she’ll just return to the Horde where she’ll be welcomed with open arms and can continue to take the spotlight