Darkspear ARE NOT and NEVER WILL BE Amani

[Drokwolf-wyrmrest-accord]

What do you mean?

[Tigerfist-atiesh]

There so many different types of Trolls, but Blood Trolls are usually the ones that nobody talks about.

[Fungalmaster-thrall]

I agree plus we arent even getting troll beards major lose. Hair styles arent requested. Amani are.

[Floydfunk-moon-guard]

@Reesespieces-stormreaver

I’m not suggesting you’re saying Amani or Darkspear would change, I am saying because Dracthyr and Worgen change forms in combat and have a transformation ability, they are not analogous to what you’re proposing and we don’t have any indication that the back end code is “already worked out.”

Do you really think it would be hard for them to modify the transform ability to simply never transform? Hell you can already do this by exploiting a bug with Evokers making it so they never leave their visage form.

Your argument here is the single most flimsy non-argument I have ever seen and it really just amplifies my accusation of not actually arguing, but just reiterating your chosen belief.

@Reesespieces-stormreaver

Not really. It slashes the up front costs that players enjoy, while saddling devs with the long-running work-intensive costs that they are on record as taking into consideration when designing new races.

How? Seriously how does it saddle devs with any long running work intensive cost? And how would those costs be any different if they made Amani their own allied race?

@Reesespieces-stormreaver

I am talking about the literal coethnics of theirs, the Revantusk,

I’m gonna let you in on a little secret here. The Reventusk aren’t actually a part of the Horde. They never formally joined. They just made a pact of friendship and mutual assistance.

Plus and this is from the wiki “Because they continued to feel some loyalty toward the (old) Horde, the Revantusks were the target of many attacks from other forest trolls. Eventually, the Revantusk tribe relocated to the coast of the Hinterlands, where they hoped to avoid further notice.” The Reventusk may have evoked Zul’Jin when fighting the Vilebranch, but don’t really have much love for the Amani. The Reventusk are a lot like what the Darkspear were to the Gurubashi. They weren’t fighters, they were negotiators. The Amani are just as likely to look down on the Revantusk as the Revantusk are to not trust the Amani.

@Reesespieces-stormreaver

See: Nightborne, Vulpera, Lightforged Draenei, Void Elves, Highmountain Tauren, Mechagnomes.

And? Any one of them could have been neutral, Blizz simply chose not to make them so because they wanted balance between the allied races. Every Allied race since then has been neutral, I could just as easily say the precedent now is all new allied races will be neutral.

@Reesespieces-stormreaver

I actually meant writing one or two lines of in-game text.

Swapping out a few guards to Forest Troll models doesn’t even require that.

@Reesespieces-stormreaver

then you’re ignoring the fact that the single biggest cost would persist even with your solution.

And what cost is that exactly? And if that cost is the same regardless, then yes, any other cost reduction is in fact a reduction. And if your cost is the retrofitting of old armour, they are a slightly modified Orc model, the same way the male Zandalari are a slightly modified male Night Elf model. Retrofitting armour will be no harder than it was for Male Zandalari. Meaning you are vastly overestimating the work and cost.

@Reesespieces-stormreaver

that players enjoy

Stop trying to speak for anyone but yourself. Some players may enjoy. Many others don’t give two squirts and just want the model playable.

@Drokwolf-wyrmrest-accord

With Zul’jin dead and the Amani ranks decimated, Zul’jarra, who has been stated to be a more pragmatic leader, is trying to find a way for her people to thrive. Presumably, this means not fighting a losing war against large factions like the Horde and Alliance, as the Amani are quite familiar with how that ends. It was also stated in the Deep Dive that if we help the Amani fight for their homeland, they will help us fight for ours. This, at least to me, implies that under a more pragmatic leader, the Amani are now willing to set aside old grudges and work with others. All that is required is that we earn their help.

And again, nothing you say there means they would only consider joining the Horde and not both, or that they would choose a side at all and not simply remain peaceful but separate from both.

[Moyrá-nemesis (Moyrá)]

I won’t lie, I prefer it this way. I’m very against the allied race system, which gives us entire customizations that could easily fit into the original races. I honestly think it’s absurd to have three Dwarves and four Elves.

The Amani Trolls are quite different from the Darkspear, and simply making them green would never pass for an Amani, but I’m also against the Amani being playable due to their past history with the Elves and the factions.

[Dommont-saurfang]

@Moyrá-nemesis

I’m very against the allied race system, which gives us entire customizations that could easily fit into the original races. I honestly think it’s absurd to have three Dwarves and four Elves.

I second that. All of it could be rolled into one race + allow player to choose racials.

[Reesespieces-stormreaver (Reesespieces)]

@Floydfunk-moon-guard

Do you really think it would be hard for them to modify the transform ability to simply never transform? Hell you can already do this by exploiting a bug with Evokers making it so they never leave their visage form.

So, let me get this straight: Your entire reason for proposing that Forest Trolls be rolled into Darkspear customization options is to reduce the amount of work needed; however, to make this work, you now suggest that they need to actually put work into abilities and back end code?

Sure, they could but that adding work sort of defeats the stated purpose of reducing work.

@Floydfunk-moon-guard

How? Seriously how does it saddle devs with any long running work intensive cost? And how would those costs be any different if they made Amani their own allied race?

You know, if you actually read my posts you might be able to identify the actual arguments. Instead you’re just kneejerk reacting to everything I’m saying without actually comprehending it. No wonder you think I’m just reiterating positions.

To be as clear as possible, the long-running cost is that every single piece of 3d gear added has to be custom fit to the Amani model. That is one of the reasons cited for why Blizzard doesn’t add more races. That cost persists even if Amani are rolled into Darkspear customization because it’s a requirement for a separate model. Every Helm & Shoulder model has to be rescaled, every geoset attached to chests, gloves, belts, boots and now pants has to be refitted, rescaled and appropriately attached to the Amani model.

That is the long-running cost, and it’s going to be a necessity whether Amani are an Allied Race or a customization option for Darkspear Trolls.

@Floydfunk-moon-guard

And how would those costs be any different if they made Amani their own allied race?

Can you actually read my posts, please?

@Reesespieces-stormreaver

You’re pretending there’s a huge cost to a Forest Troll Allied Race that wouldn’t exist with expanded Darkspear customization options, then you’re ignoring the fact that the single biggest cost would persist even with your solution.

Like please, take a moment from just emoting at what I’m saying to explain whether or not you actually READ the bolded section of the snippet I quoted above, and elaborate on what you think that means for my stance on whether or not the costs would be different.

@Floydfunk-moon-guard

I’m gonna let you in on a little secret here. The Reventusk aren’t actually a part of the Horde. They never formally joined. They just made a pact of friendship and mutual assistance.

@Floydfunk-moon-guard

Not really. Blizz could just wave it off as they are Reventusk and or stray Forrest Trolls that joined the Horde, and retcon it that they have always been there.

So you’re under the impression that it’s crucial to draw a hard distinction around Horde membership and mutual cooperation with the Horde, but you simultaneously believe that the Revantusk’s Horde membership or lack thereof is so trivial that it can be simply handwaved away.

See, it looks like you’re very motivated here. When Revantusk are cited as a way to easily bring Amani into the Horde you throw a fit that they weren’t formally inducted. When you believe that you can make the Amani appear like “MORE WORK” you casually suggest retconning all of this.

I don’t think you’re a very honest person!

@Floydfunk-moon-guard

Plus and this is from the wiki “Because they continued to feel some loyalty toward the (old) Horde, the Revantusks were the target of many attacks from other forest trolls. Eventually, the Revantusk tribe relocated to the coast of the Hinterlands, where they hoped to avoid further notice.” The Reventusk may have evoked Zul’Jin when fighting the Vilebranch, but don’t really have much love for the Amani.

Hold on, you’re telling me that in-game quest text doesn’t matter, because you quoted a section of an unofficial Wiki that has no citation and doesn’t even bother distinguishing which Forest Troll Tribes were attacking the Revantusk?

@Floydfunk-moon-guard

And? Any one of them could have been neutral, Blizz simply chose not to make them so because they wanted balance between the allied races. Every Allied race since then has been neutral, I could just as easily say the precedent now is all new allied races will be neutral.

I’m not arguing that precedent dictates faction choice here, and you weren’t either until you realize your point got blown apart. Let me refresh your memory:

@Floydfunk-moon-guard

Nothing you say here couldn’t also apply to the Alliance who is also helping them through their story.

I am simply saying that there is precedent for Allied Races who are helped by both factions to choose one faction.

Apples and bowling balls, but I get you really are desperate here.

@Floydfunk-moon-guard

Swapping out a few guards to Forest Troll models doesn’t even require that.

So you can easily “swap out a few guards to Forest Troll models” if Amani are implemented via Darkspear customization, but we necessarily have to have a bunch of NPCs added (which is truly a Herculean task that is infinitely more time intensive than model swaps) if we get a separate Allied race?

@Floydfunk-moon-guard

And what cost is that exactly? And if that cost is the same regardless, then yes, any other cost reduction is in fact a reduction.

I laid it out already, read my post? Either way, you’re not arguing for cost reductions, you’re arguing for additional costs, just elsewhere. You would much rather ignore the biggest, long running cost, deprive players of front-end costs that they can actually interact with and enjoy, while imposing back-end costs that won’t be felt or interacted with by players.

@Floydfunk-moon-guard

And if your cost is the retrofitting of old armour, they are a slightly modified Orc model, the same way the male Zandalari are a slightly modified male Night Elf model. Retrofitting armour will be no harder than it was for Male Zandalari. Meaning you are vastly overestimating the work and cost.

The Females are an Orc Model, the Male Amani actually use a custom model on the Troll Rig. It’s too alien from the Troll model to easily port assets over.

@Floydfunk-moon-guard

Meaning you are vastly overestimating the work and cost.

It’s actually not really comparable at all, you just don’t understand 3d modelling.

@Floydfunk-moon-guard

Stop trying to speak for anyone but yourself. Some players may enjoy. Many others don’t give two squirts and just want the model playable.

“Some,” “Many.”

You know, if you’re going to pretend we’re only allowed to speak as individuals here, you probably shouldn’t reveal yourself to be a sleazy hypocrite in the next two sentences.

---

@Moyrá-nemesis

I won’t lie, I prefer it this way. I’m very against the allied race system, which gives us entire customizations that could easily fit into the original races. I honestly think it’s absurd to have three Dwarves and four Elves.

Okay, but we already have three Dwarves and Four Elves. Additionally, the operative word in what you said is “easily.” Forest Trolls cannot easily fit into the original races because the models are entirely different.

@Moyrá-nemesis

The Amani Trolls are quite different from the Darkspear, and simply making them green would never pass for an Amani, but I’m also against the Amani being playable due to their past history with the Elves and the factions.

So basically, you’re happy we’re getting Green Darkspear, not because you think they pass for Forest Trolls (you actually concede they wouldn’t), but because you don’t want Amani to be playable.

“Something something they hate Blood Elves and left the Horde after a major war was lost”

See, this doesn’t hold weight in a world where a race joined the Alliance after waging a 25,000 year long intergalactic campaign of genocide against another Alliance race.

Especially with the new context for Amani decision-making we’re getting in Midnight.

@Dommont-saurfang

All of it could be rolled into one race

They really can’t.

[Tinthil-emerald-dream]

We get another new race the haranir, but can’t get Amani or ogres…sometimes it feels like the wow team just pulls crap out of a hat and says that’s what our players want!

[Floydfunk-moon-guard]

@Reesespieces-stormreaver

See, it looks like you’re very motivated here. When Revantusk are cited as a way to easily bring Amani into the Horde you throw a fit that they weren’t formally inducted. When you believe that you can make the Amani appear

No. I have never once said I wanted to bring the Amani into the Horde. The only thing I have argued is a way to bring the Forest Troll model to the Horde. Hence why I have never said Amani, only Forest Troll.

@Reesespieces-stormreaver

It’s actually not really comparable at all, you just don’t understand 3d modelling.

Ok, I will admit I’m not that knowledgeable about 3d models. The males looked like modified orcs to me, so for the sake of argument I will give you that. But all that really does is make both our positions moot because it means Blizz will never do either.

@Reesespieces-stormreaver

You know, if you’re going to pretend we’re only allowed to speak as individuals here, you probably shouldn’t reveal yourself to be a sleazy hypocrite in the next two sentences.

Yes. Some and many. That very specifically states I am not speaking for everyone. I am giving you two of many possibilities as to how people can see the situation. Where you simply stated that is what players like. Maybe you need to learn what the word hypocrite means.

[Tinthil-emerald-dream]

The tweak I would like to see for allied races is very minor.

You pick an orc then you would see our green orcs then brown, and or whatever else they may add. That and make racials rp things not useful in combat

[Jhaella-maladath]

@Reesespieces-stormreaver

because Forest Trolls are physiologically DIFFERENT from Jungle Trolls in ways that CANNOT be addressed within a single race.

Some are. Amani specifically are bigger and burlier, but those like the Witherbark are not. So Amani might not really be part of the Horde, but Forest Trolls will be.*

*Scratch that, I must’ve been thinking specifically about Vanilla when the normal troll model was used.

So yeah, probably too much to hope for that Blizzard would’ve added an all new customizable model to Darkspear trolls.

[Pibblee-stormrage]

@Reesespieces-stormreaver

and this is one of the ways that we do try to approach this is as it’s appropriate to the story, we’ll look for cool ways that you can integrate cosmetics into your own character.

See as someone who plays gnomes, this felt a little depressing because when are we ever relevant to the story?

[Reesespieces-stormreaver (Reesespieces)]

@Floydfunk-moon-guard

No. I have never once said I wanted to bring the Amani into the Horde. The only thing I have argued is a way to bring the Forest Troll model to the Horde. Hence why I have never said Amani, only Forest Troll.

Okay, but you’re getting caught up on semantics here. I was not suggesting you wanted to bring Amani qua Amani to the Horde, I am using Amani colloquially (typing “Amani” is much faster than typing “Forest Troll”). My point is that the importance of the Revantusk’s status vis-a-vis the Horde shifts in importance depending on what you’re arguing.

@Floydfunk-moon-guard

Yes. Some and many. That very specifically states I am not speaking for everyone. I am giving you two of many possibilities as to how people can see the situation. Where you simply stated that is what players like. Maybe you need to learn what the word hypocrite means.

Okay, but the issue here is you imply that I cannot speak for anyone but myself, but automatically imply that “SOME” people take my position, while “MANY OTHERS” take your position. I mean for starters, if we’re only speaking for ourselves, let’s only speak for ourselves. More importantly though where are you getting the figures necessary to declare “some” and “many?” Because it seems like a word game to imply that more people take your position. Otherwise, you’d surely have just used “some” and “some.”

---

@Pibblee-stormrage

See as someone who plays gnomes, this felt a little depressing because when are we ever relevant to the story?

I always figured the Gnome tie in would be a half-and-half tech themed patch split between you and the Goblins, but it looks like that ship has sailed. It’s unforunate in some sense, but at least you won’t be saddled with some unsatisfactory half-measure.

[Zakktzuk-amanthul (Zakktzuk)]

@Tinthil-emerald-dream

We get another new race the haranir, but can’t get Amani or ogres…sometimes it feels like the wow team just pulls crap out of a hat and says that’s what our players want!

Obviously Ogres and Gnolls should have been added ages ago along with Blood Elves and Goblins because those races were depicted as standard mixed-race faction members in things like the Defias Brotherhood, the Venture Mining Company, the Twilight Hammer, the slaves of the Dark Iron Dwarfs, the Dark Horde, etc. So it’s weird that they never got drawn into player factions. There are a few Horde Ogre NPCs up to cataclysm and then they entirely disappear.

That being said, I can’t recall if proper Forest Trolls were ever seen in Orgrimmar despite there being a Horde-friendly village of them. I kind of think there was at some point, but I could be misremembering things.

[Fungalmaster-thrall]

The green skin and a few new hair colors have been datamined.

The hair colors dont seem that different from what we have just muted hues of red orange and purple.

One new hair style is also revealed. Doesnt look that interesting. No beards so far.

Not enough to fill an amani itch. The green skin on darkspear models dont do much. Still looks like a darkspear or witherbark. Not the bulky amani we want. Idk. Feel like giving up on trolls all together

[Drokwolf-wyrmrest-accord]

Yeah. It’s very inadequate. If this is all we end up getting, then Blizz truly has screwed us Amani fans over.

[Drokwolf-wyrmrest-accord]

Amani fans, I come bearing some pretty bad news. The new Forest Troll models were finally datamined, and their m2 files are not character m2s. This means their models are not compatible with player armor and were likely never designed to be used as a playable race.

[Fungalmaster-thrall]

This is a horrible day for troll fans.

No beards, no amani, no love

[Reesespieces-stormreaver (Reesespieces)]

What an absolute punch in the gut. So they can’t even backtrack now in the face of backlash.

Whoop dee doo, another expansion with nothing to look forward to. Call it MIDnight.

[Drokwolf-wyrmrest-accord]

Yeah. It’s a monumental disappointment. I think the saddest part is that it has made all the other cool stuff coming in Midnight feel pointless. Playable Amani was the thing I really wanted. It’s the thing I’ve wanted since I was first exposed to the game in late TBC. Now was the time to finally give them to us, but that isn’t happening, and if not now, then it’ll probably never happen.