The non-conglomerate factions and re-arising powers

Lore Story Forum
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Out side of the two typical factions & many races we play – All of the other ‘threats’ have sort of lost their menacing appeal, in comparison to the might of the Alliance and the Horde — or the combined strength of the magnitude of Alliance & Horde working together.

This has created an array of issues, such as - but not limited towards:

  • It’s got to the stage where many of us have recognised (at least by lore standards) – That we don’t really feel as much intensity, awe and value of importance as an adventurer in our journeys anymore.
  • Our kingdoms are held-fast strong, and collectively dominant — and yet we don’t really expand much in spite of this
  • The matters of being ‘crucial’ to ensure survival, progression or flourishment of X race’s / faction’s people has fallen.

So I was wondering – How would the players feel if the wars we’ve had overtime, with the Legion, each other - mild adventures in between and around along with other dark forces was established to the point that both the Alliance & Horde’s numbers have been dwindled so much to the point that the other forces have began to recognise it.

That in our constant wars, battles and hardships – We have diminished in size to the point that old enemies, thought-defeated adversaries and even new threats — Have began to rise. Seeking to claim kingdoms for their own ends, purposes and goals.

Ultimately:

We could have enemies & forces that could prove troublesome later, arising as a considerable threat & rising in enough power to pose a challenge for our forces and a threat to our faction’s very wellbeing, such as:

  • The Centuar of Kalimdor
  • The Kobolds
  • The Gnolls
  • The Quilboar
  • The Harpies
  • The Mogu
  • The Atal’ai
  • The Ogres
  • The Tol’vir
  • The Satyr & other demonic beings
  • Elemental factions continuing to rise.
  • Criminal Syndicates emerging
  • Pirates continuing to manifest around the world (After the One-Piece :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye: /s )
  • The Grimtotem, Feltotem and Yaungol fortifying for dominion or one last push for power.
  • The Mantid and other intelligent Aqir races, building their societies once more & seeking to claim resources from other lands.
  • Warlocks, Necromancers & dark practitioners.
  • Undead who had been freed from the crown of domination (either since the first time or the second) and are now rising in power (including those of the Nerubian Empire).
  • Zul’Drak having unified with their freed undead & rebuilding their empire … For better or worse.
  • Zul’Aman & Zul’Gurub on the rise once more …
  • :dracthyr_blob_dance_animated: The murlocs numbers growing of terrifying masses over multiple regions – All with heightened intelligence … and deadlier weapons.

and so on …
There’s loads of threats that could be build up as a major threat – without disposing of them entirely the shear moment they’re introduced (that’s boring) and build up plentiful amounts of stories overtime.

So :clap: On that note …

What story or threat once thought trivial or dealt with — Would YOU like to see? :thinking:

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I don’t even think those factions need to rival the Horde/Alliance; they just need to be present. If nothing else, it would bring a touch of flavor back to the world to have dangerous non-quest NPCs roaming the map, whether that be Naga, Syndicate, cultists, brigands, or even hostile adventuring parties.

7 Likes
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The problem is that in general those groups we have faced off with in the past have been largely decimated. Some of them it to the point it is questionable if they even still exist.

To try and bring them into the story as a major threat would require a fair amount of handwaving and would feel very forced.

I really think they only way most of the previously defeated groups could come back into the story would be just as background trouble makers. Small groups that cause issues when most resources are being used to deal with the actual threat. Which does happen some in the story.

Take for example, Gnolls. By and large they have been defeated everywhere they pop up all over the world. But they were are threat in DF. They started causing a lot of trouble in Azure Span. Though, they only really were able to progress that far because the big powers were focused elsewhere.

I think most of those previously defeated groups coming back can really only make sense as small local threats in the background of a story because the stronger powers are focused elsewhere.

That said, absolutely. Bring them back in that role. The more variety, the better. They would have to be background, local threats. But it could add to the story and world.

That said, there would also be some that could not come back in anything other than a very forced ‘we want them’ kind of narrative. This is going to be organizations and groups with small areas of origin that have been wiped out, in some cases repeatedly.

Among those would be groups like the Scarlet Crusade, Grimtotem, Mogu, etc. Their numbers were gone. And their structure, origin, and/or goals make it hard to see them getting numbers again.

Looking at Mogu as a specific example. Most of their forces were decimated. Their leaders taken out. The forge and Raeden removed as a source of power. So, their surviving numbers are small. The source of reinforcements (forge) is gone. And their driving purpose as been removed. The only way they could come back as an actual threat would be at best a cliche, at worst a hand wave. It would have to be something like ‘oh, there was another forge’ and they want to take over for…uh, reasons. Or it could be even worse, ‘Somehow the mogu returned.’ :wink:

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I do like the idea of keeping old organizations relevant, and of regularly showing the current status of old world locations. So I’d love more minor storylines or quests that take the players back to old locations to meet the next iteration of old threats.

Similarly, I’d love to see older threats be the backstory of new ones - like Kurog Grimtotem leading the Primalists. Even if his was only a name, (since has has no story behind why he is there, how he recruited the Primalists, why they agreed to fight their factions to tear down the modern world, etc. Give me my villain lore! :angry: ) it’s still fun to have that bit of connection between the old threats and the new.

So I’d love to see some old villains showing up even in new stories in new locations - I think it could be done in a variety of ways which wouldn’t require the player to know old lore, but gives a bonus for those who do. Off the top of my head, a few ideas are:

  • A few Scarlet Crusade clerics make contact with the Arathi Empire, merging with some hardliner groups there to teach them about the outside world, how terrible it is, and how best to bring the flames of purification to corrupted outsiders. The SC NPCs could be background NPCs giving sermons/briefings/infodumps* during infiltration quests, and be a dungeon and/or raid boss in the villain group’s associated content.
    *Bonus points for having them give a full recounting of the history of their ‘persecution’ by the PC factions, because villain POVs are fun even when, or especially when, they’re completely skewed from the PC’s reality.
  • The villain group of the week has a hired rogue/assassin (or whole gang of such) that is stealing MacGuffins either before the player can reach it or from the PC/good guys after they recovered it. The rogue turns out to be a Syndicate member driven out of Alterac by encroaching Forsaken and higher promises of gold from the expac’s bad guys. (Or bonus, make the rogue a Defias for Alliance players and Syndicate for Horde members, with a personal grudge against the PC’s faction.)
  • The next end-the-world cult has a few former members of the Twilight’s Hammer. And/or, bonus points if there’s a minor recurring NPC who serially signs up as a recruit for each doom cult for shallow reasons, that the PC can dissuade each time, but always shows up for the next one. (“Did you see what Deathwing did to Stormwind? If signing up will keep him from eating me, I’m in.” “Hey, these Primalists say that unless we get rid of the Titans, they’ll put us in those forges of theirs and turn us all into robots! I don’t want to be a robot!” “…Okay, fine, this next group does sound a bit nutty. But have you seen this uniform they gave me? I look amazing!”)
  • Undead and necromancers popping up in a zone can be traced back to a Cult of the Damned instructor who is trying to build their own power base after the Scourge fractured.
  • An enemy group with ancient history is bolstered by a Mogu’s dark magic, as the mogu calls on ties to that species/faction millennia ago and is seeking to use their power for its own ends.

There’s a lot of ways to incorporate old villain groups - it just requires a bit of storywriting to fit them in. I hope we get more Kurogs, but with stronger (or any) lore explaining how and why they got there.

8 Likes
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100%

Getting backstories on villains who remained sort of vague or obscure would be great.

  • Even if he’s already defeated – I’d still love to get some backstory on Kurog Grimtotem.

Personally I’d love to get more continued story on :sparkles: The Primalists :sparkles: – Even if they scattered such as handfuls like some becoming loyal to Vyranoth, some going into hiding, others considering their war won with Vyranoth being accepted into ‘the inner circle’ to enact the better changes for Dragon-Kind & returning to their respective peoples (That’d be me! :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye: ) — or even handfuls now going to other factions, like the Twilight’s Hammer, elemental lords or perhaps biding their time for Iridikron’s return for when they too shall come out of hiding and push their ultimate goals once more.

2 Likes
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There is also the fact that the Mogu were only really a threat because of Lei Shen. Just look at Mogu’shan Palace. Three different clans would rather fight each other than actually uniting under the King (Xin the Weaponmaster). A lot of empires in the real world fell to ruin as soon as the founder died. And the Mogu were no exception to that trend. It says a lot when the only chance the Mogu had to reestablish their empire was to rely on the Zandalari to resurrect the Thunder King. And that hope died once again. The hostile mogu clans in BFA were more of a nuance than an actual threat.

As an aside, I did like how Island Expeditions served as a way to set up minor antagonists later on in the expansion. Mainly the Mogu, the Amathet Tol’vir and the Twilight Dragonflight. I still think 8.3 should’ve had a new dungeon focused on the Amathet. Like the tomb of the Sun King was right there. Their leader, Sun King Nahkotep, is a rare that spawns right there. Have him along with some other rare elites, like Sun Prophet Epaphos and Watcher Rehu as the other bosses.

3 Likes
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Surprises me that Mogu still think they’re the greatest & consider all other races as inferior – Despite being rolled-over by those races, and are now on the brink of extinction.

To give a sense of realism, it’d be interesting to see them finally begin to comprehend their situation & power, resulting towards them being overwhelmed by:

  • Doubt :scream:
  • Despair :fearful:
  • Demoralisation :confounded:
  • and Despondency :worried:

Eventually having led to the point that the majority of the Mogu peoples that were left had scattered across the oceans and regions of the world; ultimately becoming mercenaries for other factions and causes — Unanimously believing that their ‘grand empire’ or stance as a united people to be a futile one, letting such fruitless ambitions go and seeking out other destinies … :cloud_with_lightning: Whatever they may entail. :cloud_with_lightning:

:diamonds: Same goes for the Vrykul, some Titanforged and a handful of the other troll-tribes / societies to be honest …

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Which I believe is exactly what they should be.

Well, to be fair, it is not like that kind of thing doesn’t happen in RL. Things like losing, objective evidence, and facts often don’t matter to a lot of groups (especially when pride is involved). So, the Mogu still holding on to that is not exactly unrealistic.

I would argue that a unanimous response like that would be more unrealistic. But it could be interesting to have individuals do that. We could get some interesting characters out of it.

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Yeah but now they’re scattered, shattered and just about … Well, the entirety of ‘their’ lands have been taken by other races & societies.

In real life, a lot of the ‘prideful groups’ that endure are those that still hold a semblance of land – Unless they’re given equal rights in the remade-kingdom; to which sadly in many cases many try take advantage of that and create propaganda, conspiracies and plots to overthrow those who have taken majority of the land & law.

As for most empires falling, aside from plague or attacks from outside groups – Many have fallen due to rebellion that led to a cataclysmic domino effect towards economic failure, political enemies, Internal division and whilst all that proceeds to rock the foundations of the society-in-question — They’re unable to confront any additional calamity, threat or problem that comes their way appropriately … Ultimately:

  • Rebellion
  • Coup d’états
  • and political anarchy (eg. Assassination attempts)

→ even if unsuccessful, can still cause a lot of significant damage.

… So yeah I’m kind of surprised that many Mogu haven’t recognised that their empire has already fallen & moved on. :joy:

That’s fair.

:person_shrugging: I mean at the very least perhaps the mass majority? :thinking:

There’s still people out there that want to see the Roman Empire rebuilt – but they’re extremely few in number, and we know it’s probably not gonna happen. :joy:

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I’d like to see the Yaungol make a return, explored more. One of the few races we didn’t really gt to proper dive in lore with in mists, personally. The Mantid also having direction that not just generic villian bat like they were in Bfa be cool too. Lastly, whatever remains of the Ymirjar and the Vrykul still following arthas’ example.

3 Likes
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Not sure that is actually true. In fact, I am pretty sure it is not.

Most of the lands the Mogu held just would not be populated by any other group that we know of. They may still have some presence in the vale, depending on how aggressive the Pandaren would be pushing them out, but knowing the Pandaren that is probably not complete. And there is no indication any other group had the interest and/or ability to settle the Isle of Thunder. There is good reason to believe they have lands they control.

And both situations could apply to the Mogu.

As I mentioned above, they do likely still hold some of the territory they did before.

And given the Pandaren nature it is entirely likely that they are even given rights and allowed to pass through lands they don’t control.

It would make sense if some had and some stubbornly held on. The only real question is percentages.

I would like to see Mogu that break off and do their own thing. Whether they are outcasts giving up on the past or just the early steps of the Mogu scattering and ending.

I think part of the question is time.

Take a more recent example. Right after the US civil war most of those that supported the confederacy still wanted the whole ‘South to rise again’ thing, and ‘fought’ in whatever way they could (some in politics, some in just rhetoric, some in terrorist activities, etc). Sure, some gave up and moved on, in spirit and/or physically moved. But for quite a while there was a VERY strong support of the confederacy even though it lost. And even today, generations later, there is still support for it.

The Mogu are at the early stage. They just lost. You would expect some to start moving on. But, not the majority yet. That would be quite a bit down the road. What would make sense right now is most Mogu holding to the old guard and a few striking out to build a new life.