What’s your justification for this claim?
2 Likes
There is literally nothing wrong with it mythic. It’s just the players not doing their job. I am a M0 player and a veteran of M0 dungeons. And I can say that it’s so challenging and people just can’t do mechanics. Just be better. I consider myself cutting edge player.
That is a thing though. You didn’t need to buy a carry to get over geared running easy keys. Timers were also so lenient that an entire group can go AFK for 10 minutes after the key starts and still time a plus 20 back then. How do I know? My first timed 20 NL our healer accidentally hit their hearth button instead of the rez right before worm boss and we waited for them to fly all the way back.
16s and 18s were so easy that carries were easy, some people paid but those would have been the minority as there was a lot of unpaid carries from high rated players running 16s-18s for fast crest or vault slots and other players got the same reward then floundered when they weren’t being carried, despite having the gear, hence players in Max gear level still not knowing mechanics in Keys above portal range.
Though at the same time, people were timing keys at 20 with five tanks. People can carry in +9s and 10s now, the thing that changed is that it is harder to fake it until you make it now.
All I know is, I’m not having fun. So much unavoidable damage that has to be healed at the same time you are having to move to avoid dying to avoidable damage. Everything hits like a truck. I eventually got all portals from SL S4 and all seasons of DF, but unless we see some big nerfs, I don’t see myself eventually achieving that this time around, which feels really bad.
10 Likes
To be honest I didn’t have a problem with it. I don’t care if a terrible player attains the same gear as me, because even if he has it he’ll still be awful, and I would rather chance needing to help a brainlet through a mediocre pug experience than have the standard pug experience become the miserable sweat-fest they currently are.
I view the current setup as lose-lose.
13 Likes
My complaint about M+ right now is that almost every dungeon feels miserable to run. Some dungeons have mechanics that really punish players for failing them. Things are okay enough when I run with a regular group, but pugging is just…ugh. I can’t even bring myself to run lowbie keys because I dread the prospect of bombing a starter key because someone can’t, I don’t know, spear Stitchflesh, or interrupt Patty Cake.
7 Likes
But Delves have randomness to the rewards; You can get gilded crest from maps but there’s no guarantee to get the maps. People will cap at 619 and the Delves can’t offer you anything per se. People who want to continue to progress will push higher and challenge themselves.
I’m inclined to say Blizzard may back off a bit from M+ Gilded Crest drops at +9, but there’s some serious question marks with the reward structure right now. The early gearing is entirely too easy, and the mid-tier is kind of a bit of a dead zone. Maybe to your point people will just not play since they don’t see it as rewarding.
3 Likes
That’s the thing though, the gear rewards were rewarding Mythic Plus far more for far less effort. It’s not to say that I care if people have it or don’t have it, was merely stating that Mythic plus was giving extremely good rewards compared to the effort required, kind of like how delve Maps give so much better gear for the effort and it impacted the lower end of Mythic plus even though it is limited.
When someone says that it was untrue that people could get Max item level without learning anything, it’s clear they haven’t had the joy of inviting pugs to their keys with very high item level but very little knowledge. Within only a few weeks it was possible to be Max item level, what time it takes to reach that point has been stretched out a little but the start was to make it so that the highest upgrade path required doing the highest content. Previously, doing a plus 20 was a joke if you weren’t timing all of them by the firsr or second week. Now that they are harder, it naturally slows down the gear curve until people reach that point.
That is taking into consideration that the only gear track that got slowed down is the last one and the very last levels of hero gear. If a vast majority of players are not doing Mythic track content, why are they angry for not getting Mythic track rewards? In about four more weeks, the keys that reward gilded crests and Mythic vault will be a bit more trivial and easier to do because people will be out gearing it. I am not mad that I don’t have Keystone hero yet and all of the portals because I haven’t put forth the required effort to earn it yet. The goal is to solve the problem rather than complain that the problem is too hard, it will be possible to get it solved for you later whenever anyone else has it figured out.
1 Like
Stonevaults:
- Unavoidable damage overall and too many casts that need to be kicked but stunning doesn’t lock them out of casting.
- Right side bosses (which already got nerfed tons) super badly designed, RNG based and overloaded with casts and unavoidable damage. Fire puddles get literally on top of the only safe vent and it overlaps with the big damage AoE, which again most damage is UNAVOIDABLE. And even the avoidable one can be unavoidable by purely RNG.
- Left side boss is literally raid boss in a dungeon. Completely overloaded, damage scaling is absurd, orbs doesn’t last long enough and taking orb is necessary but the damage you take by taking many orbs is stupid. This boss alone is the reason of why 70% of people hate this dungeon.
- Last pack going to the boss with the prio mechanic with a bunch of knock ups and again, unavoidable stacking damage.
- No checkpoint.
Siege of Boralus:
- First of all, it’s siege.
- Stupid amount of unavoidable damage, completely random. You can target by every auto attack and rogue shadowstep and just die out of nowhere, without chance to even pop a cd. Overlapping abilities like getting pulled into a frontal or getting pulled into a charge, which they said they fixed but it didnt.
- First boss is buggy, extremely punishing for ranged, bombs take a lot to get down and it’s totally rng. Sometimes can spawn a bomb in each extreme of the boss room and sometimes it spawns 3 side by side. Also he overlaps his AoE pull with frontals, again totally RNG.
- Second boss buggy, sometimes it casts Gut Shot mid air when it’s coming from the ship.
- Packs after that boss, and sometimes before, suddenly running away pulling more mobs. Something you can’t really control and stunning them doesn’t change much because they just keep running.
- Last boss, even after several nerfs, still buggy with Xalatath’s Affix, bugged for lots of pet classes.
NW:
- % count severely nerfed, you need to almost pull the ENTIRE dungeon to put it to 100%
- Second boss completely unbalanced, you need to kick his casts but need to save for add spawns. Random enrage mechanic. Unavoidable damage and you simply can’t do nothing about it but deal with it because blizzard told u to.
- Third boss BIZARRELY overtuned, had nerfs in the first week because it was simply undoable. You gotta focus more damage into the add the boss spawn than the boss because it’s damage was so overtuned.
- The whole dungeon is balanced around the weapons and it sucks because then you either have it used perfectly or you lose the key. Badly designed.
City of Threads:
- Heavy casters. Bringing more than 1 ranged in this dungeon is suicide.
- Boring version of “Court of Stars” to eat time from the dungeon.
- Second boss: tons of unavoidable damage.
- Third boss: heal absorb (in an already shortage of healer season), knockbacks, unavoidable heavy AoE that overlaps with Heal absorb. It’s like punishing players for doing the mechanic right.
- Last boss: overloaded with mechanics that overlaps with more unavoidable damage that requires you to stack and also get away from others. Already nerfed multiple times and it’s still badly designed.
- No checkpoint.
Grim Batol:
- Stupid trashes that shreds tanks and also pulse, you get it, unavoidable damage.
- Every boss in this dungeon been nerfed in a way simply because they were overtuned. Last boss got almost a WHOLE overhaul in it’s mechanic and visual because, you guessed it, overtuned and badly designed.
But then half of the dungeons are based on previously seasons, so people are supposed to know what to do for at least 50% of dungeons.
Well, if you think 100mins is average normal time to finish a broken key, idk what to tell you. Again, no one wants to stick out to keys because 1 wipe is literally brick. This season is terrible…
19 Likes
Just looking through the list, it’s clear you might not understand some of the dungeons. Second boss of necrotic wake for example, you can use orbs to silence entire waves of casters, one orb shuts down an entire wave and the CC can be used in place of it assuming you keep them cc’d long enough. The weapons are expected but you can time them without using the weapons but you’d have an easier time with them.
Grim Batol isn’t that bad now since they nerfed the little guys but it mostly is the Throne of Tides problem where if you kill all of the ads before the pulsing AOE goes out, you probably die. If you don’t automatically start blasting all of the adds, you live.
City of threads have harder bosses, but that’s just it, heavy heal checks with a stack on tank/spread from tank dance and dodge balls.
For Stonevault, orbs do last long enough to break the shield, you grab one after first crystal and when the shield comes out you get another then you burn. Healers also want orbs for increased healing. Don’t need a checkpoint in Stonevault because it is the smallest dungeon, it is three halways… City of threads not having a checkpoint is one thing, but Stonevault?
3 Likes
Yeah, but I don’t think there will be that many people who were doing delves exclusively that will want to pursue those higher tiers of upgrades given their cost in terms of time and effort.
There could be a bump at that point, but I don’t think the numbers then will broach the first 2 or 3 weeks of the season in terms of runs.
That’s pretty much what I think yeah.
It’s possible, though, given delves are an unprecedented wrench in the system and shaving off a potentially large portion of m+ participants that there could be a surge, in accord with your point on gear prog.
Also for the transmog, almost forgot that.
I wouldn’t say the maps had much an impact on the lower end, just the base system in general. It’s all PvE gear in the end, so there’s not a lot separating a 606 out of a t8 from a 606 out of a +6 save perhaps some better stat budgeting. And I don’t say that as if it’s an issue, it’s fine if it does that because in the end it’s all just PvE anyway.
Yeah, and in the process of making them harder they’ve become a miserable experience. So, from where I’m standing, they’ve made it harder both to gear and just to play the game, which was already a nuisance as Demo because the class dev has a fetish for turret casting, hence for me a lose-lose.
I gained absolutely nothing from this, and what’s more the friend group I usually run with has sort of just stopped. So, they don’t wanna play, I don’t wanna play, a lot of people wanna pug but the changes made pugging cancerous, it’s all just terrible.
I just can’t view changes that inflicted all of that upon me in anything resembling a positive light.
3 Likes
Why are you comparing the IO of the top players at the end of a 6-8 month season to now, three weeks in? Are you seriously trying to make inferences based on this data? lmao. wild.
5 Likes
How about we come back at the end of the season and compare numbers instead of 5 months vs 3 weeks?
It also doesn’t really work cause they changed how scoring works from Fort+Tyrannical to just one score. OP really didn’t think this one through.
1 Like
Ppl aren’t vetting their groups well enough. I don’t even list my own keys and I vet the groups I join.
I think the primary positive changes are that there aren’t any affixes that require you to bring a certain class anymore. You can push all of your rating in one week instead of needing to time a key twice, you get it in one.
If people are fretting that it’s too hard to get the hard gear now that they are no longer wanting to play, that probably means that they were only doing it for the easy Myth gear. If they were only doing M+ for the easy gear, then we found the problem.
If it is because the dungeons are hard, take that as the opportunity to learn. Improve. Strive to be better instead of quitting at the first incomvenience.
2 Likes
Your post is well written and fact based. Your recommendations are reasonable and would reignite a lot of passion in m+.
Sadly, Blizz devs do not play the game nor do they listen to the players.
6 Likes
You are blind if you think comparing 3-week data to 6-month data is “fact based”.
6 Likes
And rightfully so.
They cant smash it easy in random no voice pugs where people barely understand the mechanics?
3 Likes