Covenant abilities, balance and all that

Community General Discussion
81

you mean like imba RNG legendary items did, last expansion. they didnt learn anything from that and guess what, we knew in the beta that the whole system was busted, and guess what, blizz ignored the feedback.

this is why i hate the idea of covenants/azerite/essences/legos. other than the rng they just keep adding grinds for RNG loot. put the power back in the classes.

again, this is why most people just want to freely pick the abilities, so they can choose whichever covenant they like and stick with it.

indeed. and the idea that if you have access to all covenant abilities, then all classes should be removed just doesnt jive.

but what we are talking about is the sheer output. and thats why it matters. we are talking about straight % in ST and AOE. builds have nothing to do with this, though i suspect the random spec here or there will be able to stack certain stats to break the game in ways that were not expected.

guys, i have no issue with the asthetics, cosmetics, and non combat abilities being semi permanent. as in, its a grind to change, but can be done, and you cant go back. mounts tied to it. weekly rewards, flavor quests, toys, mogs, the works. just not power.

we must have access to all the covenant abilities, some agency to pick a couple to be able to swap between, and the ability to reasonably change the abilities we have choosen. they will be imba AF, and the first 2 balance passes wont actually change that.

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82

Or remove them from anything but world content hence removing the ‘edge’ one will have over another that people will complain so much about

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83

I don’t think that is the right solution…

84

So here is a better question to all this can a system like this realistically function in a way the feels meaningful in the way it is or could be change to? I think not really we have a game that from is very base design does not support this system very well. We have a system coming that ties two abilities to you while locking out 6 BUT at same time making a skill tree to augment this with three variations THAT can be switched on the fly while at same time you need a book or rested area to change talents starting to notice something here? We also have these abilities be class based not spec but in legion they took us off from being class and more spec based so having general abilities does not even work when almost every spec is its own class instead of a specialization of a class. There is so many competing designs in these systems its just crazy and we know from track record not very well balanced.

Like for legion they went full on changing every spec to be almost fully unique despite being of a class and then tied all its power to a weapon that we upgraded and unlocked stuff for over time to just have it taken away despite fact all classes/specs were designed for them. So we got another crazy system to try and deal with that loss for bfa and did it work? Nope we got a necklace that in the beginning was levels to just chain reunlock traits in gear that required money to even change the traits and were locked because they wanted us to farm more then one instead of you know being different for each spec (like talents). Then essences were added that were generalized among ALL classes/specs which caused even more chaos BUT could be freely changed at any time which is counter to azerite which is restrictive and talents which require rested or a book. Then we got corruption which I am not even sure how to summarize that bonkers of a system and that’s ONE XPAC.

We are still dealing with the massive issues from legions designs and fact most of bfa designs were just added to force power to ignore the flaws. With shadowlands testing so much of those flaws are showing bright as day and thats just one aspect along with all the other shenanigans with covenants wanting to be more rpg like and have consequences in a game thats kinda barly had any of that or was designed for it from a ground level IF the game was designed for that from a ground level well YEARS ago sure but it wasn’t. We have a game that is just a mmo with some rpg elements and more importantly from a ground level its a loot based mmo so the main goal is to get loot to progress for more loot.

We have story and its exciting to see where it goes and whats going to happen and picking one to see it sounds really cool but power tied to it when main focus since forever is loot kinda messes with that. We have so many things to do like we have three set levels of dungeons (normal, heroic, mythic) then a scaling version with mythic+. We have pvp various forms from world to bg to arena and from there unrated and rated. We have four levels of raiding from lfr to mythic. We have open world for world quests gathering for professions grinding rep and so on. This new system along with older systems are just not only a nightmare to balance just annoying to most people. People just want to log in see the fun and cool story then go out and just be able to do any of the various content. Rental stuff just hurts this and adding systems upon systems into an already not very well done system and making systems conflict with each other just annoys people and the balance team just they have a hell of a job even attempting to deal with the other teams crazy ideas.

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85

Sorry this was really difficult to read, but to answer your question at the start - can this system realistically function? Yes, and has done for the past 4 expansions.

These covenant abilities are just talents. They are literally the level 60 row of talents with a different name slapped on them. If you believe otherwise then you are just willfully letting Blizz pull the wool over your eyes.

The covenants should be tied to a vast array of cosmetics, not power.

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86

Sorry I’m not exactly the best at typing out large amounts of info of what im talking about that is on me. What I meant was more so can a system with restricted abilities tied function in a realistic meaningful way with the current state of the game not so much how the story is done. We had full campaign style stories for xpacs now and those have worked fairly well (really enjoyed the class hall still not a fan of the tied stuff to the table but outside that the campaign style seems fine this is just more of that). The tied abilities is just bonkers to me since it serves no real purpose outside the illusion of choice.

And you are right they are basically talents which is why they specifically should be opened up and not locked in the way they are it just causes more issues then it solves and in general its another rental thing which hasn’t exactly worked out all that well so far.

87

You are, without question. Legendaries in Legion alone were a 20% swing for some classes, I doubt with the scope of these abilities we’re looking at anything less than that.

Warriors specifically are, barring massive changes, going to be locked into necrolord because melee attack speed for their whole group > any of their other covenant abilities bar none. Their other choices being a bigger execute window or an AoE damage button.

This shouldn’t be a debate. Being forced to choose between aesthetics and numbers isn’t fun. Being locked into a choice with such massive implications isn’t fun. There’s nothing stopping people from sticking with their covenant throughout the whole expansion should they so wish to. But punishing everyone else for that choice is ridiculous.

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88

I strongly think you are being overly optimistic.

If having imbalanced powers would burn them enough to get it right then it would have done so with azerite traits leading to balanced essences. Or essences would have lead to balanced corruption.
I didn’t play legion but from what I hear legendaries were the same before that too.

5th time is the charm won’t give me much confidence

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89

Legiondaries were about the same in power difference as corruption is now. They’re the exact same model except you could only get the leggi once

90

wait what

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How long do you think the system will stay like this if it goes live? The uproar from the community will be instant :joy: they’ll probably have to change it and issue an apology in the first week

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92

that is such a massive buff to frost dk. basically unlimited killing machine and thus rime procs. just imagine the breath windows because of extra killing machine procs.

93

Explain to me how abomb limb is going to help my DK on a raid boss when i need to kill that boss to get an item for PVP?

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But, right now, i can choose all of these if i want. I have a single target set/essences, an AOE set/essences, a tanking set, and a healing set with accompanying essences. Within each set/essence build is a CORE SYSTEM of BFA…but now in shadowlands i don’t get to have this same kind of choice involving a CORE SYSTEM? I don’t buy it.

95

Some people suggests that with the inclusion of legendary, soul bind, blizz will balance the covenant system.

I do not share such confidence. Please take a look at their track record, as recent as the corruption, the essence, the trait system to get a sense of their ability to “Balance”

Notice Ion’s remarks. They choose to not nerf Infinite stars too much, because people already spent absurd amount of money (IRL money, token into gold) purchasing it. This line of thinking will affect covenant too.

I would agree that if its balanced, then the covenant would be a great system to have. Some believe blizzard deserve the chance to “Try” to balance it. I do not.

Especially considering that the expansion so far looks very promising, and we do not need take unneccessary the risk that could sink the entire xpac over what i deemed optional moonshot project.

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96

Agreed all around. I posted this a while back:

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97

they had there chance, with legendaries. they had their chance with artifact weapons, with 2 expacs of AP, with azerite, with essences, and with corruption.

will other covenant things balance it out? if we are talking ST vs cleave, sure, though then i would ask what is the point and why are these powers not in the kits in the first place if. people dont like “whacky gear” and moving the whacky abilities to something else will just turn the ire to that thing.

however, how are you going to balance out giving the rest of your raid attack speed bonus. that is massive, maybe game breaking massive, for a couple specs. you gonna let your warrior pick anything else for raid? are frost DK going to have to be balanced with that ability in mind?

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To tack on to what others are saying i would like to refer to the shaman necrolord ability that depending on your spec will do a few things but I’m going to focus on Enh.

When used I will send out a wave that will do x damage or x healing (though I suspect it’s actually single target not aoe) and apply flame shock. I can then cast riptide and heal people but ele gets to cast lightning bolt. Why as a Enh Shaman would I be casting riptide when I am dps? It may be just a typo in the tool tip but if that’s how it actually works I have very little hope.

99

Debatable.

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100

Because the soul binds that go along with it could have 10% more damage passively.