Could Holinka have possibly said anything worse?

The talent tree is making me choose between a Cheat Death or a Charge-like gap closer that should be base with the Enhancement Shaman to begin with.

Our most damaging throughput is based off of Primal Primer, without it I found my DPS to be more garbage than The Bachelor.

I hope they fix some things and move some talents around.

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8/8, I skipped this tier on mythic, though.

Interesting retort from a level twenty forum alt, though.

If legendaries at least bring classes back closer to what they were in Legion than in BfA it’s still an improvement over BfA.

I do think things like chi and mana tea mechanics were better in MoP for MW’s compared to the more generic resource systems we have now. If they could take the BfA MW and toss in chi and mana tea but leave their AoE mechanics as vivify and essence font which are better than uplift, I think MW would be awesome, but I guess they aren’t interested in giving healers resource systems that aren’t boring and generic.

I also think crit for holy paladins was a lot more interesting in Legion than it was in BfA. Holy paladins felt like Legion-lite going into BfA and then they ended up getting a haste option. I think them having a haste playtstyle vs. always being about crit is fine, but the crit option would feel better if it were more like Legion than BfA. Also, replace their mastery if you do nothing else with them. It’s easily hated by a majority of people who play the spec.

I also wish they’d realize their horrendous choice in WoD+ to gut caster instant casts and mobility was wrong and finally go back to how it was. Prayer of mending should be instant cast baseline as it was for many years before they foolishly changed it. Now you can have it back… via a PvP only talent. Wild growth, same thing. Adding cast times to those kinds of abilities didn’t improve class design. It just made the abilities feel worse than how they had been for several years before the new-school B team screwed it up.

I’ve been playing since the original closed beta for vanilla… I think I know just fine and probably have more experience with the game than you do, so kindly mind your place…

  • Warlocks aren’t going to use weakness over agony, even in pvp. It will likely be a trivial amount of damage reduction per hit.
  • Warlocks will only use recklessness over agony in M+ as the mob is about to die to prevent it from fleeing, which only applies to some mobs in the game.
  • Warlocks might use tongues in pvp, but it will likely be a neutered version where it’s only a 20% increase in cast time.
  • Warlocks will rarely use doom because it competes with agony. We would have to see what kind of damage it does.

They will likely just neuter mobility for outlaw and sub now that players can use crippling poison in the specs.

Not really, almost every class and spec has some kind of gap closer and the debuff will probably only be 4 seconds in fire/arcane specs.

It depends on the class, but for the most part, no, they aren’t. They are mostly flavor abilities that will sit on your bar and be used once in a while.

However, lots of classes are going to have abilities like how DKs are going to have where you’ll use them, even if they end up being trash:

  • Raise dead: It will not do much damage in blood/frost (maybe 5% of your dps and the rest of your dps will be nerfed to account for the added damage)
  • Summon gargoyle: Same as raise dead
  • Anti-magic zone: Will probably shield from 30k damage if you’re looking at BfA numbers.

It’s just going to add back to the whole button bloat dilemma.

Like I’ve said in other threads. If the mechanics of a class aren’t fun, then adding back in some old spells won’t really fix much. Now there are some classes in a good spot, but some do need work, mechanically.

Saying “the unprune will fix things” is basically applying a bandaid to a big bleeding wound.

Is the unprune a good idea? Yes. There are abilities that we need restored. But we also need mechanical revisions to take place as well to fix the unfun factor present in a number of specs.


bfa classes arent really good, adding a couple missing spells like it should have been from the very beginning wont do much in the long run.

yuck this is just opinion


Could Holinka have possibly said anything worse?

Sure. Like this:

We are happy with how classes are in their current state.

or this:

We’ll double down on your class strengths than shoring up your weaknesses.

or even better:

We don’t want you to play [enter spec].

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It’s a pretty accurate opinion though.

Also, if all specs have access to everything, then you’re just homogenizing spec identity and it detracts from the feel of the individual specs. If I’m playing a fire mage, I don’t ever want to cast a frost bolt. If I wanted to do that, I’d play frost.

MoP was great for the most part. Annoying when I see people blindly hating on it.


It’s pathetic. That’s what it is. I may not of liked everything Ghostcrawler did, but even still. I’d buy him a beer if I saw Street… on the street, and I’d thank him for the good times I have enjoyed in this game.

Wow, that was a way catchier reply than I intended for this response to be. Point remains. Making death threats over a video game is pathetic and anyone who even thinks it, is sick in the head.

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you’re misunderstanding

i’m not saying that bringing the focus from spec to class is going to fix all the problems

but legion class design is extremely 1 dimensional with almost no skill floor or skill ceiling
i can boost any spec in the game and do more damage than someone whos been playing the spec for 3 years effortlessly if put in the same gear

they went full force with ‘we dont want you to think at all about the buttons your press, so we can make the raid mechanics more complicated/interactive’

which just made every game mode outside of month 1/2 mythics BOOOOORING

they also went full force with 'classes will have 2-3 button rotations, 4 passive damage sources, then gear will bring another 10 passive damage sources
gear will now bandage depth to your class :)"

which is an ugly bad look

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A lot of the class issues are due to the extreme RNG nature of rented ability gear, how overpowering the rented ability gear is, and overpowering secondaries.

The rented abilities are probably close to 70% of your output. I can leave an M+ with focus azerite beam alone being 25% of my output.

So if a player or spec has good luck or easier access ( first bosses in a raid ) to thier BiS rented ability gear they take off. If not then other specs leave you in the dust.

Thats how i feel.
I am kinda tired of my paladin, hunter and shaman going for soo many drastic changes from exp to exp.
They can improve on what we have now and keep the trend. and i would be ok.

I was in beta too.
But honestly most feedback were very poor, like… 95% of them didnt have much elaboration beyond “Here is a new skill” or “change this skill asap now”.

Only mages miss those though.
Really dont wanna see that many amount of cc back in.

I’d like to see healers be more like they were in MoP too. The playstyles were unique and cool.

They feel boring and samey now, without a keystone or enrage timer the differences between them are negligible. Same meme comes up in any “recommend an easy healer” thread: “any healer can time a +10, the choice is irrelevant” None of the healers have a glaring problem that can be addressed with a “minor” fix (maybe they could make Holy Priest more mobile, but they’ve been waiting a looooooooong time to get thrown a bone there lol).

To be more unique, they’d have to start bringing powerful support abilities, powerful enough to be more important than their damage-while-healing or their long CD utility. Or roll back to MoP playstyle diversity. Both would be a “major” change.

I did not have that issue. Just because feedbackis useless and some is useful we shouldnt throw the baby out with the bath water.

The earlier the better. Imo and yes we need some good feedbCk during beta

Legion had a pretty wide margin for skill cap on a lot of specs. A bad fury warrior will do 70% of the dps of a good fury warrior in the same gear. A lot of the specs were like that. Demon hunters were one of the few exceptions due to how simple the spec mechanics were. It was almost impossible to screw up, so you were looking at maybe a 10% variance in dps between a bad player and a good player.

And personally, I found this far more attractive. I know many others who agree with it as well. Plenty of other games do just fine with fewer buttons. Could you picture the mess game like Diablo would be if you had like 500000 abilities to use?

Bloat was an issue that many complained about, they rectified it and then some people cried about them going too far. Flavor abilities should still exist, but I don’t want the bulk of my priority list to have 10 abilities in it. That doesn’t make for interesting gameplay.

Not true at all. With my current spec, my fury warrior has eight damage abilities and short cooldowns that I use in combat(not counting things like charge, leap and other cooldowns). If I frequently mess up my priority list, it will have a massive impact on my dps because I won’t maintain as high of an enrage uptime.

  • Rampage
  • Bloodthirst
  • Raging Blow
  • Whirlwind
  • Execute
  • Dragon Roar
  • Recklessness
  • Essence

I’m concerned that they’re going to leave arcane exactly as it is only with access to two spells which I’ll never use, except for when I’m locked out of arcane. I’m hoping for more info by the time beta arrives, but I hold little hope.

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This wasn’t the case for imo a majority

both dk dps specs
arms warrior
enhancement/elemental shaman
all mage specs
demon hunter
assass rogue

i didn’t play feral/sv/fury though
so maybe they just designed those specs specifically well!

the problem with this, is that the rest of the game becomes incredibly unfun
pvp arenas bgs?
non mythic raids where the mechanics require 0 interaction?

my vehicle is so incredibly boring in 95% of content what’s the point?
if you’re a raid logger than yeah this is probably more attractive to you
your personal skill on your class becomes 0 but your individual skill as a raider might improve
but at the end of the day that’ll always be fundementals and weakauras and not worth much

bloat is a problem, i don’t think specs need a ton of abilities back for the sake of flavor
anyone worth their opinion wants interesting interaction > flavor/buttoncount

as far as utility goes, things like
things like warriors intercept or banners
or like shaman root totem for dps specs
holy paladin holy power/mw chi
ww TeB
are p big

skillcaps like pre wod fire combust
dot snapshotting
dk rune system
secondary resource management
are all just more interesting

things like frost shock, magma totem, ect are pretty irrelevant and are just button bloat

essentially the only buttons you press 90~% of the time

very rarely

a couple times an encounter?

you’re genuinely satisfied with that level of interaction?

to each their own and i wont bash you
but the resounding crys of ‘classes feel awful to play’
have much more to do interactive rotations than flavor and button count


Oh? Did Holinka come out and say that? That’s kinda poop… :frowning: