They even picked Tear of Morning over Rising Mist?
I am going to look through raider. io and try to see a MW that is running a complete caster build in the top 100s.
Looked through the top 20 MWâs and not a single person is running bonedust/tear. Every single of em has fae/rising.
I am going to look through even more.
Checked through the top 100 MWâs and only THREE, ONLY THREE have casting builds.
One has mending proliferation/bonebust brew while the other has unison/tear, and last one is running semi-caster with fae/invokers. 99% of the rest of MWâs are running fae/rising.
The talent system is an illusion and you people are being fooled, we donât get more âoptionsâ as people claim them to be. When 99% of people are running the same talent builds, you know somethingâs wrong.
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No they did not lmao, when majority of mw monks are running the same builds it does mean â1 build fits allâ
I donât think the devâs did a great job with the tree.
If you look at the damage potential of a FWing build vs. one that doesnât take any melee talents at all other than maybe RSK to proc rapid diffusion, the damage difference isnât like some minor difference. Youâre doing like 10x+ less damage a lot of the time outside of maybe spamming SCK, but youâre not going to do that when anyone needs to be healed since it does zero healing when youâre not speced into faeline (and youâre still doing less damage with that since you wonât be taking any supporting damage talents). Or if youâre really just playing a caster purely youâre going to near zero DPS (presumably youâre at least debuffing the enemies once so probalby not 100% zero).
If youâre going to be giving up that much damage, you should be gaining something else in the process. Whatâs the tradeoff? Is your HPS potential much higher? Your mana efficiency? Do you bring some other buffs that a FWer isnât bringing? âEasier to playâ I guess is the only real benefit, but it seems like youâre giving up quite a lot for that (and itâs not like FWers are in a high place themselves overall).
It would have been much better if they had implemented any number of suggestions to make a real caster build actually either have damage options with CJL (or mechanics that flow with SooM) or bring some compensation for bricking their damage potential. The issue there seems to be if they listen to any feedback at all, itâs only coming from one side thatâs opinions arenât especially useful for other playstyles since theyâre not playing that way and actually often seem hostile towards the very existence of other playstyles. I remember some people in beta actually seeming angry at the very suggestion that CJL ever be given any optional purpose for a MW.
Making things like Teachingâs of the Monastery a talent was also a mistake if they werenât going to give you any caster damage filler alternatives. Yea you can âspec hybrid,â but then youâre giving significant things up to have talents that arenât doing anything half the time. I guess zen pulse with accumulating mists was a poor attempt at this, but it definitely didnât hit the mark.
It also wasnât asking much to make things like Chi Wave and statues more interesting.
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Caster does not mean Ranged. Mistweaver has always been melee damage based and people who want to play at range really have to accept that. Adding in more talent nodes just to address the fact that the spec was never designed to deal damage at range is just going to bloat the tree.
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This is kinda wrong, because even âcasterâ builds benefit from things like SotC/RSK and are still in melee. Just regenning mana through SotC and to abuse RM in my raid build I still had pulled 5k-6k at the end of some fights. ( still learning the fights/where to be so itâll get better once I start to maximize gcd usage and trying to remember to get my chillblobe off early in the fight )
I can pull more in dungeons with SCK and Ive seen anywhere from 7k-20k some fights depending on how babysat pugs need to be. I honestly cant be bothered to monitor my dps though as itâs the last thing on my mind when 1-2 pug dps arenât interrupting at all and one guy just went from 100% to 3%.
Can burst much more early on in fights with the help of a chillglobe trinket too and being able to dump TFtea on RSKâs till damage happens. Youâre obviously doing less damage as the fight goes on once mechanics start up or the more mistakes that happen but with both tears/CF I can easily cover mistakes outside of oneshots in dungeons, CF in raids is nice for tank healing duty without OOMing.
Itâs not as much dmg as a âfistweaverâ build but to say we donât/cant do any damage is entirely wrong and misleading. Im running haste/mastery heavy right now so depending on secondary stats your mileage may vary too and Fey line people are stacking other stats heavily that help do more dmg too. SOTC alone gives you the opportunity to regen mana in downphases to pump later. If any MW is pressing the buttons right you can still put out decent dps even if it s just to regen some mana to pump later, or not oom faster.
The trade off is not doing maintenance healing through damage via fey line/etc. Chi ji is obviously a clear winner too for cooldowns compared to YuâLon. Again though: that doesnt mean âcasterâ builds ( as you guys put it ) are not viable or dont put out any dpsâŚunless someone is actively ignoring the toolkit/talent interactions.
Talent tree is fine the way it is designed. Just needs a few tweaks to certain abilities to bring YuâLon closer in line with ChiJi as a cooldown, and for the less useful abilities to be removed or reworked ( chi wave, zen pulse, song of chi ji, half of the cocoon talents ). In 10.0.5 Sheilunâs will be a nice fit for cleave nuke healing and to replace some vivify spam - despite the lessons being rng.
Itâs not nearly as bad as you make it out to be.
I agree with this one. However I think part of the issue is there just arenât a lot of MW monk to begin with anymore, even less on the PTR giving feedback, and even less running any build other than what few Peak of Serenity/wow head/etc guides push on people. ( all who have the same 2-4 writers from PoS ) We arent seeing a lot of new people coming into MW at all because itâs not new player friendly and gets a bad rep, and can be pretty elitist. They actively scare people away from MW more than anything.
Blizz needs to put the effort into out talent tree and make a few tweaks, but as a whole I think had the right idea by allowing a few builds with tweaks in the talent trees. They just need to do tuning passes on certain abilties that arent related to FW and buff things like YuâLon for non fey line users.
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Nah, CJL exists in the kit already and should do something. It also wouldnât âbloat the treeâ to stick CJL effects into talents that are already there like Unison and font of life as examples where it would fit well.
I also have no problem with them having melee ranged utility, I donât think they need to be able to do everything at 40 yards.
In MoP people who loved the caster style probably also PvPed as MW a lot and you used plenty of melee ranged utility even though healing wise you used mostly casting tools.
edit: Iâll also throw back in my point about TotM being baseline again since itâs super awkward to TP + BoK without a mechanic that was baseline until this expansion. You should be able to fall back into this seamlessly whenever you want regardless of your spec. If they were going to make it an optional talent it should have some alternatives.
If youâre speced into TotM and SotC I wouldnât describe your build as a caster build. Hybrid maybe.
Thatâs probably still less than half of someone whoâs focusing on FWing.
I feel like youâd only get this in a caster build if youâre in trivial content where you donât need to heal much and can just spam SCK on a fight that has a ton of adds.
What I said wasnât wrong or misleading though since I specified the near zero if youâre purely caster and all of your examples are not that.
The trade off is losing damage as utility and gaining what though?
Youâre losing damage and gaining ???
Yea this is an interesting problem.
Part of it I think is FWing isnât very approachable in harder content.
Though regardless of how you spec just the perception of it being near the bottom and not being very present on leaderboards and rated low by youtubers and what not is probably the biggest reason.
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You are correct. When pugs dont take much dmg and outside of scripted or rot damage that forces me to heal lots I just spam SCK/RSK on aoe and still TP/BOK/RSK on ST, chi burst thrown in there usually before I roll up to the adds ( or chillglobe if itâs a boss ). Like I mentioned I varies ALOT but the point is we do still put out damage. It all depends on how much damage people take and if they use personals. etc. Im running mastery/Haste heavy atm so I imagine even I could pump out more dmg if I spread my stats around though.
I tend to assume normal MW monk are still in melee just playing properly despite build. If you meant âcasterâ as in someone staying way back just casting CJL then yes, that will be next to no damage. This can get confusing for me because one personâs version of âCasterâ Mw can vary from another persons. I get lumped in with most âcasterâ builds when people use it as an insult or demeaning way and itâs actually kinda refreshing someone noticed I was a hybrid for once :3 My bad there if I came off as defensive.
Id say it has easier/cheaper/quicker mistake coverage outside of cooldowns. More-so on single target people who make mistakes or to assist new tanks who are still learning/gearing if are squishy. Abusing every mana talent in raids seems to get me farther in the content Ive done, if I remember to Mana Tea and TP/BOK 3x during the fight I can generally play with my mana. As I was learning the fights more I was starting to see when I can pump hard, and then regen and maintain RSK extends during downphases.
Not being tied to feyline for M+ is a bonus in my eyes as it feels anti thematic to the mobility of MW. I get higher skill cap players are making it work but couldnât imagine healing some of the pugs Ive done as a fey build where people have placed bad in weird spots or tanks dont move bosess around/out of badâŚjust tons of crap to avoid this season and itâs less fun when you are confined to that small space. I donât get the luxury of playing with familiar people/m+ groups that push and am limited to pugging so I believe the build I run for m+ makes my life easier. In raids I play with my talents more and again am more hybrid there like you mentioned.
I used to love oldschool disc in Cata with atonementâs unlimited range, if MWâs fistweaving talents had turned out like that Id probably be on board for that entirely tbh. I think builds within the current tree are already possible though but it would be nice if they could buff certain talents. ( YuâLon specifically to bring it closer in line with ChiâJiâŚbutâŚcommon blizzâŚjust make it a full time healer pet :3 )
Wholeheartedly agree.
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Yea, I donât always know exactly what someone means when they use the different terms since it means different things to different people.
I just find it fascinating that they gave us the option to essentially spec into zero melee related talents almost (Iâd still tend to pick up things like an interrupt and what not, but you can spec out of a lot of melee damage). I feel like when you do that something is missing though. TP + BoK feel super awkward to use if you donât even have TotM. I feel like we should have gotten something more if you spec that way thatâs compensating for losing that much damage potential and Iâm not sure the ease of play is really enough since I think thatâs half just me being bad at FWing that makes it easier, not necessarily that FWing is supposed to be as hard as it probably is for me personally in harder difficulties.
If I can spec out of TP and BoK feeling like useful filler, I donât see why I shouldnât be able to spec into CJL being more useful as filler. Or if they really wanted heavy caster to be like no damage, maybe SooM should give the target a damage amp or versatility or something.
This is fair. I do feel much more comfortable with caster options in an emergency than speced heavily into the FWing side of the spectrum. Though from the way some people describe it, that may just be because Iâm bad at FWing and not that caster talents are necessarily better in those situations?
Yea Iâve only tried Faeline specs in super low keys where I hardly have to heal. Itâs nice there because I have nothing else to do anyway, though my monk is up to 380s now (but not ideal stats or trinkets, I have 5 70 healers now and itâs not my main) so I only really did that a handful of times with friends alts keys and for the dungeon weekly this week.
I find pugs move a lot unexpectedly and even frequently you think theyâre stopping there and then you Faeline and then they immediately move like your Faeline cast encouraged them to move or something.
Or in things like in HoV once at the bridge when people sometimes pull trash up and activate the next trash at the same time. People are just constantly moving in the chaos and I just donât even attempt to use FL at that point.
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my bias⌠so not advocating end be all min max best use etc etcâŚ
If i could get CJL to deal descent* damage and the old OLD spinning fire blossom ability and stand back to deal damage ( and maybe a small* bit of healing as a filler) that would be great. Iâm one of the rare ones that at times speck to purely keep afar at ranged, usually doing group mechanics or covering the ranged group, so i donât always want to be in melee.
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Could be neat to see that return in some fashion.
I think originally it was a Windwalker thing exclusively if I remember correctly? Could be nice to have another spell to cast at range in a caster build though.
Ya, thats what i was thinking: like you CJL ( base damage boosted) and if you could talent for fire blossom so when you CJL you could get a proc to use it and deal damage and maybe healing or something cool. just random out there thought, but variety is fun. and is it not the point of the talent system overhaul to give many options?
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This same feeling is what led me into a hybrid type build tbh. Still picking things up like RSK and the EnvMist proc talent from using RSK, TOTM/SOTC. I naturally would have picked up all the healing things but it felt like something was missing ( mainly half of the toolkit I had when I had played in Legion era before taking a break ) and some of the melee talents just make any build better imo. Picking up some of the dps/melee things made things flow and feel better in the end. Being able to take SOTC AND mana tea now? Hell yeah! I was excited because I remembered how bad the mana situation could be if we werent careful.
This is a good point. Some of those melee nodes could/should be made into choice nodes dealing with CJL. Something like SOTC and CJL both regen mana depending on the choice, TOTM being one option and the other option being something like CJL stacks and goes aoe boom at max stacks. I can see it working even without a full talent tree rework if theyd put the dev time into it. I have a feeling with the return of Sheilunâs they want this to happen to some degree but it also feels like MW is being ignored by even the devs. SoâŚsadness.
It depends honestly. I believe one could put the time/effort into FW and do great once they get itâŚand if pugs arent making it impossible, but if you arent having fun doing so I dont recommend it at all.
The Fey line builds do great, there isnt any arguing that. However I feel like the top and more successful FW are running with familiar people/groups, constantly discussing strategies and such, able to not need to worry about unscripted damage or where they are standing so much to be able to maximize dmg/healing ( because at that level itâs a one shot anyways if someone makes a mistake or places bad in a stupid place ). Itâs also just not so easy to just pick up, requires some gear/stats to feel good, it requires set up and intimate knowledge of when damage is coming. Luxuries most players are not afforded and partly why we are seeing MW monk participation at an all time low I think.
With the return of Sheilunâs my raid and m+ builds will pretty much play like how they did in legion, plus buffs, and I am pretty giddy about that. With the tweaks I made to my raid build last night I was having a blast and was getting 40k-50k healing constantly with spikes of 60-70k with cooldownsâŚwithout tier and probably poorly optimized for a raiding environments stat wise, lower when we swapped to 4 healers. The viability is there.
Ive never had these issues thb, but that is because Ive never ran Fey Line. Thatâs not me being smug, itâs just a non issue or thought when you donât run FL. Im obviously not the best m+ pusher but im confidently sitting around 10-11s now. I havent tried anything over an 11 because Ive only been trying to push one number a week across the board ( last week was 9âs , this week is 10s, next week will be 11âs ), mostly joining random pugs while coming back after a break and joining a start up guild. I burnt myself out in BFA spamming m+ which led to a very long break.
I believe there are ways to cover for heavy movement in fey line builds, or get resets faster but it all sounded terribly unfun to me. I feel like fey line gives up too much flexibility to deal with mistakes and too much mobility tbh, but if you have a good group itll do great. I am jealous of chi ji being able to PUMP compared to YuâLon. I will say that. ( that doesnât mean YuâLon is useless btw it just needs some tweaks/love )
Not saying itâs the way it should be, but itâd be interesting if Yuâlon was better for raid healing while Chiâji was better in dungeons. By âbetterâ I guess I mean, easier to manage in a large group.
The Caster build is harder to gear for, youll see more in the later part of the season. That being said, MW monks need big buffs, currently less than 300 monks have times all on 15+ and they have the least representation of all healers this xpac. Disc is currently lower slightly as a spec but overall priests have the most healer representation of all healers.
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Ranged mistweaving is a hard sell unless something changes with mana economy and soothing mist locking you in place.
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More than movement while channeling Soothing Mist, I think what I would like the most for the spell is some sort of capstone talent that allows us to swap targets with it mid-channel to bypass the GCD after the initial one. Something like:
You can now swap targets with Soothing Mist. Swapping targets does not trigger the GCD, but instead reduces the remaining channel time of Soothing Mist by 1 second.
With something like this, it would allow for faster triage healing as well as the ability to better maximize Clouded Focus, which would in turn increase mana effiency and general throughput. The 1 second remaining channel reduction would help curb its potency. At least thatâs how I see it, as a scrub MW.
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Does the 2nd soothing mist by Unison trigger vivify or enveloping mist on the 2nd target?
It does not