just get rid of raid lockouts - or make them x2 a week (like ZG was back in the days).
and then improve m+ gear please, so we don’t have to raid for bis pieces. m+ loot is trash this season, nobody is targeting pieces from dungeons - minus trinkets or creation catalyst options. 
everyone would be happy?
I love this, but honestly this is weeks overdue. I feel like valor was basically strangling my progression to get past ilvl 400.
I don’t understand why people always have to compare one method of gearing to another in their arguments to hold that other content back.
If something doesn’t feel good for an M+ player, it should be expanded for the sake of that M+ player’s experience, not kept or nerfed to make raiders happy.
I do both forms of content, and while I’m not a CE raider or anything, it’s annoying that people are so insistent that content they don’t enjoy needs to be gated in progress.
The infinitely farmable concentrated primal essences are cool, too-- not claiming that it isn’t a massive strength of M+, but people seem to forget that you can get 421 and even higher gear from mythic raid vaults, too.
JFC… i cant beloeve you actually pandered to such a terrible idea.
Remove the mythic raid lock out at the same time. What an absolutely, objectively awful idea… wow.
I think the solution is to scale down M+ gear in raids and scale down raid gear in M+. That would make the most people happy.
Seen a ton of burnout among raiders since M+ was introduced, because you HAVE to do M+ in order to do progression raiding effectively, turning raiding into a second job.
i don’t understand why that’s the case…is this more of a core issue with great vault system or something?
why would a raider push m+ for any other reason than catalyst options or great vault loot at the start of a tier? (i’m legitimately curious)
i thought you said the lockout system is what is holding raiders back…if that went away, wouldn’t raiders be happier?
Will we see the Spoils of War buff return as well or will that show up later in the season?
Because raiding drops barely any loot. Four drops for 20 people. Six drops for a full 30-man roster.
That’s NOTHING.
Even a full 30-man raid will get a grand total of 15 tier pieces in a full Heroic clear, for example. Even assuming perfect token distribution (which never happens), you can’t even get FOUR people their 4-piece in a week, even if you funnel everything to those four people.
FOUR people - out of THIRTY.
Meanwhile, M+ drops loot that’s just as good, in unlimited quantities, and then drops SUPERIOR gear in the great vault.
Not to mention unlimited quantities of concentrated primal infusions to make 418 gear. You can’t even GET 418 gear in the raid until you’re 5/8 Mythic, which takes most CE guilds weeks to get to.
Most CE raiders, for most of the tier, are wearing mostly gear from M+.
Seriously might just quit. This is seriously the worst thing you could do right now.
Apparently the complete inability to see how bad this is for the rest of the end game extends past the ignorant people who don’t raid, right up to the developers.
You want alts to be able to gear up quick? Sure… tell them that when 400+ people are steam rolling 2s and wont let alts in.
Not to mention the hugely negative impact this has on the relevance of raid reclears.
On top of that, I can’t even play the content I want to because of a stupid lock out system, but i can max out my ilvl by doing WAY easier, WAY more accessible things?
I wish people could think. Then awful things like this wouldnt happen. This is seriously so… SOOO stupid.
so if you remove lockouts, that doubles the loot opportunities. i think that is fair, as long as the raid quality gear is still the best.
i understand what you’re saying with m+ GV loot being good as far as ilvl, but there are DR’s with this system…
the lack of variety in stats really starts to suck after early season, and then the GV is being used as the primary gearing system…not a “catch up” as blizzard said they intended it to be.
tbh i think we need bonus rolls again…why did they even get rid of that system?
…
You say that like the idea of instantly getting 4-pc on those characters isn’t insanely overpowered compared to M+ getting nothing on that front for 1/2 the season.
“Some of the ice cream from my gold plated spoon dripped onto the floor, REEEE” <— this is what you sound like.
Because people hated bonus rolls. “Bag of Disappointment”.
Quality means nothing without availability. The existance of 424s doesn’t mean anything to you right now if you’re not in one of the ~400 guilds that has killed either of those 2 bosses.
But to counter your point about quality being everything, There are some slots for many classes where even a 421 item doesn’t exist in the raid. So to balance the availability, we should clearly remove the ability for the M+ vault to drop capes or cloth bracers over 415 ilvl.
THe math behind this is where the timeing for the catalyst comes from. With perfect drops (or vaults perfectly offsetting any “wasted” tokens), it takes 8 full clears to give an entire raid 4set.
You want the catalyst earlier? You should be in favor of changing this math.
They need to double the amount of drops from raid bosses, just to bring it on-par with M+ on a per-person basis.
And that still doesn’t account for raiding having a weekly lockout, while m+ does not.
If the weekly raid lockout stays, then raid drops should be tripled or quadrupled.
Raiding is THAT bad for gearing, right now.
Wheres upgradable raid gear? Wheres concentrated primals in raids? Wheres my raid currency to upgrade raid gear? Can i use the catalyst to make non tier from raids into upgradable tier sets?
Can i even get into mythic raids? Can i farm raid bosses endlessy without lockouts?
M+ has all or that… and now there is NO limit at all ehile there still is in raids.
Think… for like… more than not at all.
This boogeyman idea of people spamming +2s and upgrading the gear they get from that to max just because they can is completely fake. Nobody actually does that. At most people spam +2s sometimes if they have one piece they wanna get up, but it’s a complete waste of someone’s time to do hundreds of +2s to get full 415 gear like you pretend the “optimal” strategy is gonna be.
Not to mention that unless the content you “want to do” is mythic raid, you already can clear heroic extremely easily even with just like 400 ilvl. And if you’re a mythic raider, having the extra ilvl from M+ to help with prog is a good thing, not a bad thing.
Quitting because valor/conquest caps are removed is hilariously stupid coming from someone who already is 8/8H with 0 mythic bosses killed-- you just want people to be held back so that you can… what, run raid reclears over and over again until the new tier drops?
Complain about Blizzard’s insistence on having an awful lockout system for raids and unnecessary mythic limitations. Not about M+ players getting better availability of gear. It’s so frustrating when people try to drag other players down because they’re mad at Blizzard’s limitations on their own content, as someone who does higher level raiding and M+ than you.
P.S. Concentrated primal essences are available in mythic raids. You’d know that if you bothered doing them. Obviously they’re harder to obtain in number there than they are from keys-- but once again, that’s because Blizzard didn’t think out the system properly, not because M+ players need to have stuff taken away from them.
can you increase the conquest gains outside the “rated” scenario??? through random bgs, pvp quests, etc? will help a lot of people who likes pvp but dislikes “rated /competitive”
Way too soon unless this is going going to be a 4 month tier.
Why? Because you don’t like M+? Why do you think that holding players back from getting good gear is bad for the game?
Too late Blizzard…