Conflict and Strife - Blizz's response has me worried


(Zahzy) #1

Recently, Blizzard has announced it’s Conflict and Strife essences, some of these are absolutely broken for PvE. They claim that the goal here is to have very little to no performance benefit in PvE but to heavily benefit PvP by unlocking some “necessary” talents.

Obviously, some of these are completely broken for PvE, mainly the Druid ones. Blizz is aware that this is a concern and they stated they will change it.

However, this has me concerned. Why was it even released like this, it was apparent to everyone, even those who have never played Druid, how problematically broken they were in PvE. In addition, it took them another post to mention that they would be looking at some of the others, but this seemed like an afterthought. The Druid essences were broken yes, but a lot of the other ones are also fairly overpowered compared to others.

My issue with this change is that they claim that these should provide very minimal to no performance increase in PvE scenarios, however, that is blatantly not the case. I have a huge issue with how some of these are laid out, predominantly for some classes vs. others, and how it will affect not only Mythic progression, but M+ as well.

Here are the list of massively beneficial PvE performance essences for each DPS spec:

Frost DK: Chill Streak – Beneficial in M+ and Raids on any add encounter. DPS increase.

Feral/Balance: No comment needed.

Arcane Mage: Clearcasting stacks + Arcane missiles 5% increased damage. DPS increase in all situations.

Frost Mage: Frozen orb damage increased by 10%. DPS increase in all situations, especially M+.

Fire Mage: Borderline 15% flat damage increase. How did this even get written down on paper.

WindWalker: Most likely a DPS increase due to the health increases of next tier.

Shadow Priest: Incredibly minor dps increase, smoothes rotation just slightly.

Enhancement: DPS increase. Potentially harmful in M+ if it pulls out-of-combat.

Arms: DPS Increase

Fury: Pretty decent boost to single target.

Every other spec get’s virtually 0 DPS increase or, in some cases, DPS downgrades.
Warlock : Demo and Destro are defensive traits for already highly more durable specs. Affliction actually gets a DPS decrease due to ramp timings.

Hunter: All specs basically get a potential way to cheese a soak that will most likely never see use.

Rogue: more of a utility talent for M+, to be fair, this should probably be in the above section because it’s making rogues already more OP in M+ as this will allow much larger pulls on non bursting weeks.

Ele Shaman: Unless the damage of this scaled insanely on bosses, which it most likely will not, you will never use this in PvE encounters outside of very specific high movement times.

Ret pally: More of a utility, will have it’s uses but doesn’t actually increase their performance.

Havoc: Im fairly sure this is a DPS decrease in raids. Might be better for M+.

Unholy DK: Completely useless trait in PvE.

That is unacceptable from a balance point of view. Either they need to adjust it so that every spec get’s a DPS increase, or No spec gets a DPS increase by switching which honor talent get’s chosen. In my opinion, it should be the latter, since they would need to balance existing traits, and it would be much easier to simply give everyone a defensive trait rather than offensive.


(Apparition) #2

You missed the Tank spec options and how certain choices make various class tanks abilities obscene in a PvE sense:

Protection Warrior - [Thunderstruck]: Thunder Clap roots all targets for 1 sec
With the already crazy amount of damage in a PvE sense Prot does based on uptime of Avatar the the various additional DPS added to Thunder Clap this AoE Root is functionally assisting that chain even more than before so it’s a significant boost to the warrior in M+, and Raids. Considering that Prot is doing more DPS than all other tanks and even more than several DPS classes in M+ this is not the right choice

Vengeance Demon Hunter - [Cleansed by Flame]: Immolation Aura dispels all magical effects on you when cast.
Anyone that can’t see how crazy and overpowered this one option choice is in PvE needs to understand it’s a 13 - 15 sec depending on Azerite and Talent options Magic Cleanse on the DH removing ALL Magical Effects (DOTS, CURSES etc) this has significant benefits in all PvE aspects of the game

Brewmaster Monk - [Hot Trub]: Purifying Brew deals 30% of your purified staggered damage to all enemies within 10 yards.
Direct PvE DPS increase that can in many cases actually do significant amounts of damage depending on just how much the monk has staggered with they purify that stagger. This is a direct DPS increase for the class period.

Guardian Druid - [Sharpened Claws]: Maul increases the damage done by your Swipe and Thrash by 25% for 6 sec.
Again this is a direct increase to there AoE and ST damage by 25% each time they utilize Maul which is actually quite often so this is another case of a significant DPS increase. It would be interesting to compare if this actually puts the Guardian DPS up with that of a Prot Warrior in an AoE trash fight for M+. I would say it might actually be very close and in some cases could push them ahead.

Now for the two classes which basically got the dysfunctional end of the essence stick by comparison
Protection Paladin - [Steed of Glory]: Your Divine Steed lasts for an additional 2 sec. While active you become immune to movement impairing effects, and you knock back enemies that you move through.
So I can use my sprint effectively for 2 seconds more it doesn’t break CC but it’s okay while I am using it I am immune… Yeap that’s great when I look and see the Warrior, Druid, and Monk options… no problems with this choice by comparison…

Blood DeathKnight - [Unholy Command]: Your Death Grip has two charges.
While this does allow for two grips in PvE isn’t honestly not doing anything by comparison to the top 3 who are clearly getting a significant advantage in the chosen option. They would need to give the DK Blood for Blood to provide any similar DPS increase.


(Sifu) #3

You’re assuming there will be no other Essences to choose from. ie yeah, the WW one will for sure increase their DPS, but NOWHERE NEAR as much as the pure DPS Essences will.

You have to compare these with the others available to see if they actually are OP or not.

Obviously the raid wide utility ones like the Druid and even Rogue if they can cheese LoS with it on certain boss fights will need to be looked into.

They could also just slap an EZ fix on it by making the Essence only active in PvP and open world and not work in dungeons/raids.


(Sifu) #4

It only cleanses Magical effects… Curses aren’t Magical, they’re curses. Not all DoTs are magical, some are bleeds/poisons/disease, etc.

Again, will have to put it up against the other DPS Essences. Also, this is strictly a DPS only Essence, it provides no defensive power to the BrM unlike Vision which makes Veng proc Meta, Wars proc Avatar and Pally tanks proc Wings which are both a DPS and defensive boost.


#5

This pvp talent essence idea is terrible.

And not only that, they’re making the situation worse by being wishy washy about the intended goal of the essence. The various power levels between these essences is massive. The risk of them screwing this up is really high atm because their stated goal isn’t clear.

Can’t do something risky like this and not have a clearly defined goal.


(Bobbydígital) #6

stuff like this is why i think posters should be approved

you’re seriously suggesting that a prot warrior would take this essence over literally every other option that would improve survivability or dps, for a one second root?

and this will be useful in raids for all those rootable bosses and adds huh?

and demon hunters cleansing themselves is OP, because it’s not as if healers can do that job or other tanks dealing with spell damage in their own way with reflect and absorbs.

like Jesus Christ the OP is actually suggesting that players taking this essence so they can get sharpen blade is a dps increase over gee idk, blood of the enemy giving you amazing crit damage or the vision of perfection making bladestorm happen more often.


(Krissignacia) #7

its almost as if they just blindly put stuff in to mess with us


(Bobbydígital) #8

nah it’s almost if most players are clueless and im beginning to understand why no one wants to interact with these forums


(Krissignacia) #9

that and zealot cuz they refuse to listen blizz is royalty messing up

back on topic they should ditch this cuz its never gonna be right


(Drezwazluz) #10

You’re acting like none of these are competing with other essences.

This is a major essence slot. That means it’s very strong. All of these are minor at best in power.

The only reason feral and balance have proved a point of contention with the system is that they affect between 7 other people, to the entire raid. I.E., for raiding, they’re far too important/impactful.

How.

Where.

And you rarely use purify, so it’s at best a minor increase.

Alright, just stop. You don’t know what you’re on about.

Then you’d be wrong…?

If you honestly cannot see any use for protection kiting being significantly more efficient, specifically the inability to be slowed, you’re out of your mind.

Double grip is actually insane, what? Fights where grip is useful, like Zek or Mekka, it allows for a single bdk to do what would normally require two. In dungeons, it gives bdk, already the highest control tank, even more control.

It’s literally pumping up a niche.


(Jape) #11

You’re high if you think the VNG ability is worth an essence slot.


(Phatymcdaddy) #12

Lasso does 40% of the shamans hp in pve, so like 125k at max ilvl and doesnt work on bosses since they cant be stunned. The only one that seems like a substantial dps boost is RTL for enhance, but it also has its drawbacks if it targets CC or out of combat. Anyways, these arent even final and are subject to change or tuning for pve interaction


(Sigmar) #13

Would have liked Hammer of Reckoning on my paladin, but that’s just for more of a damage window in pve


(Lahgtah) #14

PvP talents as a whole were a mistake.


(Failedwizard) #15

The Arcane one will likely never be chosen; Arcane Blast is just too powerful this expansion.


(Apparition) #16

At no point did I say anywhere that a class will take this over any other essence. The fact that you interpreted that out of the message is quite amusing.

The core point I was making is that while one class gets abilities which provide utility not just for them but for the raid or group as well while others get a fairly nice defensive tool. You have other classes which have been allocated at this point an ability which provides no function whatsoever in PvE… Necrotic Strike the biggest outlier in the category.

Now at no point am I saying a PvE player will take a PvP essence if they have access to another option which is better obviously. However, with the basis of the essence being that is provides a PvP talent that is not groundbreaking or overpowered in terms of PvE it is supposed to provide still some level of functional use in PvE that’s the point I am making as simple as that. Right now and Necrotic Strike is the one which stands out the most based on the fact it does absolutely nothing whatsoever in PvE, hence an alternative needs to be allocated instead for Unholy DK while based on the current options displayed for other classes the choices for Frost and Blood certainly are underwhelming they still do fit the essence brief as it stands.

Ultimately would a PvE core player take this essence probably not but a casual PvE player who PvP’s might and they would want the PvE aspect of the essence to be a functional option in both aspects of the game.


(Drezwazluz) #17

How did you manage to make a post this long winded without once responding to a single of the points.


(Apparition) #18

Actually I did by stating a simple fact…"At no time did I say this was an optimal PvE choice’ all I said was it provided significantly better PvE options to certain classes over other with Unholy DK have an option which doesn’t work in PvE whatsoever.

Did I need to go back and articulate through the other statements because in someway that invalidated what I said in terms of interaction for several classes getting an ability which works to some degree in PvE as well PvP and may not be optimal but it will at least work to be beneficial even to a minor degree in both gameplay elements.

Explain in detail how Necrotic Strike works beneficially in PvE and what minor benefit it provides an UH DK? I did point out that both Frost and Blood do have choices which while it’s not inspiring per say it does fit the Essence Profile Brief of a PvP talent which provides a functional use in PvE which is not overpowered or game breaking.

Does that break it down enough for you to comprehend the point of view?


#19

I feel as if you dont know anything about mages with this.

Arcane- i can give you that one, but i dont see it being chosen over other essences.
Frost- will never use this essence, we are locked to using the 2 crit ones as our major. The 10% damage it gives to orb is the 10% nerf it recieved in 8.1. It would only equate to a 5% dps increase overall.
Fire- they would literally have to stand still for 15 seconds to get the 15% buff to damage. I dont know if youve noticed, but there isnt a point in time where the game mechanics will allow you to stand still for 15 seconds.


(Turbocharged) #20

This is their way to entice players to keep WM on at all times. I don’t believe for a second they didn’t go over these essences prior to releasing them but once they started getting backlash from the players they quickly responded with “oh, these are just placeholders” BS.

If they weren’t meant to affect PvE from the beginning, then why did the majority of them aligned to PvE rather than PvP?