Confirmed in discord, Havoc changes

Dev announced in discord that havoc can expect 1/3 of the changes rogue received. Lawl


I’d just like to see said changes. I don’t really care if we don’t get a complete overhaul. Quality over quantity is fine by me.


Not sure why you lawl’d, DH doesn’t need a massive overhaul. It could use some QoL and number tuning, but it certainly doesn’t need a huge overhaul. Sidenote, 9 times out of 10 when someone is complaining about momentum, they parse grey/green. The no mover build parses 4% less than momentum and can be played by 95% of the player base without any real impact.

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Every specs uses Fel rush or VR in some capacity. I enjoy momentum to, only build I play. DH has been tuned up multiple times and is still near bottom.

So, your complaint is literally numbers tuning, and nothing to do with a complete overhaul. And people wonder why the devs don’t frequent the forums…


Numbers tuning hasn’t done anything for DH yet. If I didn’t do more dps in momentum I probably wouldn’t play it and it’s the most divisive talent in the whole game. Simple rotation yet people can’t figure it out. They need to rework DH in some way or it will be pigeon holed into one spec or another.

Havoc has a few problems that I hope will be addressed in this patch. The pathing of their talent tree and placement of certain powerful and synergistic talents limits the realistic creativity of builds. Initiative’s attachment to vengeful retreat creates awkward gameplay and mandatory talent choices in momentum and essence break to capitalize on the very tiny burst windows it creates. Finally, momentum’s attachment to DH’s mobility tools takes one of the appealing aspects of the class, its mobility, and forces it to be used for damage instead.

Havoc’s tree is so restrictive with its connections that there are many talent combinations that people would like to try but are unable to. Talents can’t be combined in a way where they would be on par with other builds because you have to pass through non synergistic talents to include them in a single build, leaving you without enough points to connect talents that would otherwise work together. Know Your Enemy is a good example of this. Either you go through Momentum to get there which requires playing an initiative build or you lose significant damage, or you go through Chaos theory which then eliminates any decent throw glaive build. Any Means Necessary is also an unreachable talent for anything but an aoe only immolation aura build. Demon hunter has a lot of variety in their tree that just can’t be used because the pathing of the tree is limiting.

right now momentum is played with initiative because of the tree’s awkward pathing and because momentum and initiative have synergy that other talents don’t have because the pathing from one side of the tree to the other is borked. This talent combo then forces the awkward camera flip-vengeful retreat-essence break combo that is a large reason of why people dont like the momentum builds. i’d like to see initiative tied into something other than vengeful retreat to break this wrist snapping interaction and reduce its synergy with momentum. Attaching it to Immolation aura could be a good interaction in a number of ways. Immolation aura instantly damages mobs you are in melee range with guaranteeing this will trigger on all mobs and not forcing the instant essence break interaction. It also has synergy with Ragefire’s crit related affect opening up some new interactions.

Momentum is also too limiting in that it requires use of movement abilities for dps purposes and not for mobility which then takes away the mobility that makes me enjoy the class so much. I’d like to see Momentum somehow tie into Felblade or Blade dance or possibly just Death Sweep. Attaching it to Felblade would only be if the theme of it being linked towards a movement skill is a requirement. I think tying it to blade dance would reward the expected gameplay of blade dancing on cooldown and create skill windows for managing your resource so you don’t waste blade dance uses. Attaching it to Death sweep only would make Meta feel more impactful and reward good fury generation and usage to extend demon form windows.

I think these could be some strong changes for dh but they are reliant on opening up some connections on the talent tree and some commitment to reworking tuning on some abilities to make them viable.

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well, rogue received overhauls of all 3 damage specs so that would equal a full rework of one spec or 50% of a rework of both specs. Either one would be fantastic.

If it was a rework of a whole spec he would have said that. It’s not gonna be near that. Some will be simple, talents moving in the tree. Probably drop some 2 pointers to 1 pointers.

way to be willfully ignorant. yes the havoc change will be smaller but given what we know on what is on target for change, it’ll be welcomed with beyond open arms.

also please understand based on your other replies that damage tuning and design are to different things. you can buff havoc by 30% on a hotfix but you cant take out and replace isolated prey in a hotfix.

That’s because the dev is also the rogue dev, and can’t be bothered to do his job.

Of course, this is abundantly obvious to anyone who is paying attention. Momentum? Garbage design. Demonic going from short intense bursts to Frost-DK levels of maintenance? Garbage design. Initiative and Unbound chaos? So bad it beggars belief.

We need a hard reset to BFA era havoc.


Couldn’t have said it better myself. All of this.

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What is the Devs name on Discord?



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this is why devs stopped communicating on the forums. calm down you dolt at the 1:42:00 mark

What’s most frustrating it the DH community. You have people complaining about things they don’t understand, and on flip side of the coin, you have people saying DH is fine, and that people that dislike Momo parse terribly and just don’t know how to use it, or could use a no mover build and do fine.

Momo is fine…and it’s not fine. There are just 100 better ways to conduct the momo concept, such as putting momentum on felblade, or stacking momentum time based on your character actually moving and then redesigning the damage component to match the ability to more easily keep it up 100% of the time. The problem as always - DH’s don’t want significant movement abilities we’d like to use for disengagement or to avoid mechanics to be tied to our damage profile. So…again…It’s not that people just outright hate momentum for no reason.

More than the amount of changes, I’m worried about the time Dev will have to respond to feedback before 10.2 is released. No idea when the notes will come out?


Supposedly around 2 weeks before the patch drops. So theoretically should have two weeks to fix any issues.

As long as they are the correct “1/3 of changes”, I am fine with it.