Community Toxicity needs to be dealt with

Community toxicity is a huge part of why so many are leaving the game. Every single day we have threads complaining about toxicity, especially in the m+ experience, which is a core part of the current design. I myself have had to deal with a fair share of toxicity.

Some people say, oh just join a guild! get friends! whatever, the reality is that most players enjoy pugging, without the commitment of having to join a guild and good friends are few and far in between - and most everybody’s friends left the game anyway. The game needs to adapt to human nature, and not try to change the players to adapt to it.

Blizzard needs to fix the root of the toxicity. The current mythic+ design in itself does not work for the majority of players. Adding IO score to the game was not the solution, since it does not address the root of the problem.

One needs to ask why is the m+ experience so toxic for the majority? I can point a few core reasons:

  1. Players are allowed to leave keys without any punishment at all. The only one who gets truly punished is the key holder who nows has to deal with a depleted key, and has to waste about 1 hour (between pugging and doing the key) to get back to where they were, assuming the lower key doesn’t get depleted again. While there are good reasons to leave a key, no consequences at all for leaving leaves the door wide open to a lot of frustration.

    ==> A short term solution could be that a key does not get depleted and instead, allow for multiple tries.

  2. New players have absolutely no way of learning how to play the game in a proper way. There is no friendly environment for new players to engage into the game and actively learn the ropes. The current shortage of tanks is a glaring symptom of this issue. The community is extremely toxic to new players who are trying to learn and there is no punishment for players when they undermine or harrass a new player.

    When I was still playing, I used to run 15+ keys on my main and lower keys on alts (5~8). The reason I ran lower keys on alts was that I would invite unexperienced tanks and healers and help them along. I would give tips on which mobs to pull, what to dispel, boss mechanics and general small things that nobody remembers that new players have no idea about. A single +6 key could take up to an hour sometimes, and I was fine with that. It turned the dungeon into a player experience and we used to actually have some laughs when someone would die to some obvious mechanics, rather than yelling at the new player and quitting the key.

    ==> There should be an environment in the game where more experienced players could assist new players learn and get some incentives for it. What the incentives would be, I cannot say - but perhaps mounts and pets after they get good commendations from the new players would be a good start.

  3. DPS rankings - most classes and specs are not meta due to the extreme inbalance they have in the current patch/expansion. It is quite impossible to balance all this mess of 200 different systems that they decided to added to the game and several classes and specs are suffering a lot.

    We get punished for playing a spec that we love. It is my opinion that the logs published by icy-veins in a weekly basis, which rank the specs by dps is misleading and extremely toxic to the community. In my personal experience, my main BM hunter (which has been my main since they ditched ranged survival in legion), can do perfectly fine in 15~16 keys and I can do more dps than average players who play a meta, but don’t know the spec well - however, I never get invited to groups just because of not being meta.

    I understand that in order to push higher keys meta is something to consider, but for low 15s any class can do fine. But what we see happening is that most classes and specs are not even getting invited to 3s or 4s because of this.

    ==> A idea for mitigating this would be: Parties that bring non-meta specs and classes would get better RNG, one more piece of loot and a higher IO score from a dungeon - thus so incentivising people to either play those specs, or invite someone using the non-meta spec. And it would be fair, because it is a harder difficulty when you don’t play the FOTM spec.

    They could even make special challenges and achieves for completing keys in different non-meta party compositions like (prot war, disc priest, sv hunter, feral druid and demo warlock). Similiar to when familiar pet battles where we have to use a pet of a certain family to beat an npc and get different achievements for that. There could be an all druids 15+ achievement (a party made up of only druids). A beast cleave 15+ achieve (guardian druid, healer, 3 bm hunters), stealth 15+ (tank, healer, 3 rogues), the pink 15+ (prot paly, holy paly, 3 rets) - something like that would add so much variety to the game.

  4. Diminished loot - all relevant m+ loot comes from the Vault. The loot that drops at the end of a key is trash. And the amount of loot and valor is also bad. Which means that people are playing 10 dungeons in order to loot the vault once per week and that is it. Which means that it is just a chore for the majority of players. With each dungeon taking about 30~40 minutes, sometimes an hour for less experienced players, assuming nobody quits the key, that is a huge time investment for a chance of goot loot on a Tuesday - plus I have seen several instances of people going weeks without a good upgrade because the vault keeps giving repeated items.

I would rather have the m+ loot we had in Legion (I didn’t play BFA so I can’t say anything about that). But in Legion, in spite of having just a chest on Tuesday, the dungeon loot was relevant - so it felt less like a chore and more like a rewarding experience. It also allowed us to target a certain item we were after, reducing RNG.

In summary.

Until the community toxicity is addressed, things are not going to improve long term. And this toxicity is rooted in the game design.

We have currently too much focus on eSports, and too little focus on anything else. “World” of warcraft is pretty much dead, there is little to no engaging content for casual players and new players are not welcomed by the community.

I don’t blame the community, since whoever still plays this game is on a constant treadmill, trying to keep up with 200 systems so they don’t fall behind and then never get invited to groups again. Which in turn makes progression a painful experience.

Not everyone who plays can play 24/7 and the little time they do have available to play, they have to spend 90% of that time catching up wht system a, b, c, d, e, f so they can enjoy 10% of the time doing the things they really enjoy. So that also leads to extreme frustration when a key would take a whole hour of the precious limited leisure time.

The core design of the entire m+ experience needs to be revisited. But in the meantime, I believe that the solutions I presented above could help mitigate a lot of the frustration that people are facing right now.

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I hate mythic+ too OP.

Everyone, that’s what the post is about.

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Have the person leaving have a 1 week debuff (resets on Tuesday), that lowers the effective level of the key of their next group by 1 (if they join one - complete with a pop up warning) - including one they start. If a person leaves your key, your key does not degrade.

At the start of the game, use that Bronze, Silver, and Gold proving grounds thing. Have Bronze start and teach someone all the way to, say, level 10-20. All queueable from anywhere in the world via the Dungeon Finder.

Silver - 20-40.

Gold - 40-60.

Just make them optional requirements, BUT have an LFG option to where you only accept people who have willingly done these.

Blizzard’s fault. Not our’s.

Allow guild group loot options in various content where they can funnel their personal loot rolls toward a certain player they may want to get geared. AKA - use your RNG for a guildie if you’re already geared up.

Of course, requiring you to have been a member of that guild for X amount of time.

Mythic Plus burned me out in BFA. Getting paired with people who were so dumb they were unable to chew was a pain.

Raiding burned me out in Castle Nathria. When you get chained to people with room temperature IQs with Sludgefist, Dark Recital, and so on and become dependent on others for your survival in that fashion - it’s not fun. I should have my own autonomy for survival and control of my character.

If I die, it should be because I messed up, not because I got stuck to the hunter who’s been eating glue, the non-turret casters who can get some movement casts while I’m stuck in place, and so on.

Friend of mine had a problem with the “Lack of Training,” thing today.

They got stuck with someone from Barthilas who was absolutely raging because they got kicked from having their voidwalker out and being told to summon their imp instead, that the Voidwalker was taunting, resetting aggro, and causing mobs and bosses to attack players. They were saying that Voidwalker was a DPS pet with its stuff turned off (they didn’t turn it off).

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Sorry to ask you do know that world of warcraft is a mmorpg not a solo player game? It’s almost like you don’t know that multi-player cooperative games are about interactions between other players.

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Sorry to reply in such a snarky way.

I’ve played since 2007. In earlier expacs, when you died, it was, objectively, your fault.

You stood in the fire. You didn’t stand beside the dragon and got tail-whipped into eggs, etc.

Now, it’s: “Get chained to derp number 5 and just die because of him. Nothing you can do about it.”

There’s raid-wide mechanics like: “Soak the puddles,” those are fine. But directly tying me off to someone who can get me killed instantly? Where I have to rely on the autonomy and competence of another person for my own character’s survival? No. Go away. Bad design. Shoo.

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Perhaps you should give ffxiv a chance to see their implementation of multi-player coop games and the interactions to see where I’m coming from. They did a fantastic job there by adapting to player culture, and not the other way around.

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Yeah maybe it’s nostalgia but I miss when my guild all knew each and were supportive in helping one another.
I can understand where you are coming from it’s sucks have one player linked to your success or failure.

Toxicity - the most over used term on the WoW forum that has no definition.

What is the definition of toxicity that is clear, concise, and objective. It can’t just be a broad stroke to be used as a catch all.

I have experienced maybe 1 rude player in my last 20 M+ runs, I don’t see an issue. People leaving keys are not “toxic”. I don’t have to waste my time in an obviously failed run with people who are not ready for it. I’m not a free carry.

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If harassment has occurred report it.

And this is why when people say “toxic” I say “what’s your definition” since that word gets thrown around so much it has no meaning.

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Even if it’s another guildie who I like, know, or trust. The fact that one mistake can kill either of us isn’t a good thing.

You’re making people actively hate each other for the slightest mess up. That’s not cool. Those kind of mechanics breed direct resentment between the people who die. And it’s RNG, so, have fun potentially getting stuck to that one hunter who thinks they can disengage turtle out of the chain.

:angry:

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It’s basically when you swear at someone or tell them to go kill themselves or uninstall the game or ‘go learn your fing class’, for having bad dps.

It’s also when you spread a woman’s nudes around the office.

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Has it crossed your mind that you may be the toxic player that ruined all the keys you left with no consequence?

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Again, define toxic that isn’t a catch all. I’ve yet to receive a definition from any OP when asked that is clear, concise, and objective. Me leaving a key isn’t “toxic”. I find me having to carry people who shouldn’t be there a “toxic” experience.

There’s no universally accepted definition of toxic. It’s even more ambiguous that “casual”

That’s an anecdote or example, not a definition.

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Has is crossed your mind that you’re toxic when you think people owe you their time when something is failing?

I do.

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takes off the mask

It was a car girl all along!

Hot take here, but you can’t legislate people into good behavior. Toxic players have and will always exist. Imagine trying to get into magister terrace without a hard CC back in the day. Or strat without a disease dispel. Illidan without a warrior.

When you’re mixing with randoms, some of them are going to suck. No amount of rule changes will ever eliminate toxic behavior. Your points have been debated to death on these very forums, and in my opinion the side effects from the “cure” are worse than the actual “problem”, and that’s even assuming the problem exists and that the change would cure it, which is dubious, at best.

The thing is that you joined the group - you can check everybody’s IO and you can clearly see if it will be a carry or a smooth key before the key starts. If you find that it is not the group for you, guess what? You can apologize and leave before the key starts. I have already met tanks who do that - they check the group and if they find that they don’t have the time or the energy to go with the group, they apologize and leave. If you are joining keys where you are carrying, that is on you. You are also to blame for the situation.

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Yes, you can. It’s the reason we have a society with laws.

And the people who break those laws go to a place where dropping soap is not a good thing.

IO is only a small part of the bigger picture. You can have a full group of 2400 io players that just don’t synergize well. You can have a group of 5 people who are all 2000+ running a +15 that ends up being a wipe fest. I didn’t sign up for a completion run. I ask if it is a timing run or a completion run and I am clear that I will not stay more than a few minutes overtime. By few I literally mean a few.

How is it on me when the group is failing and I am forced to carry? I didn’t sign up for that. I signed up to be an equal group member where everyone pulls their weight.

Am I when you keep standing in fire?

Honestly, never have that many leave, ever wonder what the common denominator is here?

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