Gotta love how every other class alpha threads have great feedback and communication while our has some troll in it completely holding things up and idiots allowing him too. But then again there wasnt much feedback happening.
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I’m not suggesting you said that, just making the observation, because, TO ME, that’s what the SV change felt like. It didn’t do anything particularly great or interesting, it just gave you a stick and made you more vulnerable without making you stronger.
All of this still follows the established FANTASY of each class, though. The archetype doesn’t change, just the way you apply the damage. There are no melee Mages. There are no ranged Warriors. Being ranged was DEFINITIVE to being a Hunter. The current design dances around the need for range but won’t commit to it or melee, which makes base class design needlessly goofy. If SV can fire most of it’s junk from a hip crossbow, why can’t it fire ALL of it? Why can’t every ability (save RS/Mongoose) be done from range as it currently exists? The only logical explanation is that Blizzard does NOT want RSV NO MATTER WHAT. It feels vindictive at this point.
Making it a choice could be SUPER EASY if you wanted interchangeability. BS/Lacerate at the top of the tree. Multishot/Carve sirectly below it. Left side is ranged and replaces Arcane with Explosive Shot for a focus dump (old, remove ES from class tree), with talents that buff fire and burns. Middle could be buffs to multitarget and utility (survivability should be in the class tree). Right side melee with focus dump switched to RS and another dead-end branch to talent to Mongoose. This side would focus on poison and pet buffing. There would need to be enough diagonal overlap for Wildfire to still be usable by melee, and poison and/or pet buffs to be usable at range.
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Ahh, gotcha. Mostly agreed, then.
I do think it had some unique and obvious added affordances, but also that SV was never sufficiently or aptly compensated for going melee. (I don’t consider accidentally overpowered uncapped AoE to be an apt compensation.)
Yet it had always had melee skills, nonessential though they be once one could have full uptime without them, traps were originally melee range, Scatter Shot was originally melee range, etc. So how is being ranged any more an essential quality, rather than incidental, than on Mage?
Yeah, I don’t get it either.
Agreed, but…
Why give RSV and MSV each only two-thirds a real spec, though? That’d be horrible for both. And unnecessary.
- Take Fury of the Eagle, for instance. There’s no reason there can’t be a ranged version of that. Such wouldn’t even require a rename.
- Mongoose Bite? Why not an identical, ramping “Steel-Piercer” or “Plate-breaker” or “Sundering Shot” for a ranged version?
- Spearhead? Perhaps it should be renamed, but… we have “spearheads,” the metaphor to which the talent relates, even in modern warfare, so that’s hardly required either. And when a ranged weapon is equipped, just have it affect Arcane Shot and the above instead.
Tl;dr:
It feels like it’d be most sensible (least limiting/wasteful) for SV to just have a ranged/melee version of every Shot/melee skill, each functioning identically to its mirror, while you just get X bonuses (like the previous suggestion, but also with shorter utility CDs when used from melee) for using the melee form / while using a melee weapon.
Now, some already differ, but that could be addressed easily. For instance, we could make Carve spammable a la Multi-Shot, or just have Multi-Shot upgrade to with Arrow Fan (conal AoE, 6s CD, double or more MS’s damage per shot, applies CDR to Wildfire Bomb and perhaps FotE and FS… which is just ranged Carve).
- I mention this because I feel MS should be baseline, but… at present it’s a non-issue anyways, since it’s in the spec tree rather than part of the baseline.
Two things:
- If a given type of content will demand throughput over all or demand utility over all, how can you then say that anyone has choice from talent to talent when you purposely put those in conflict?
- I have no idea what you mean by “took out the normal shots” because you insist on randomly reinventing terminology on a whim to shift goalposts:
That list included Coordinated Assault and Call of the Wild, both of which you’ve then called “just normal shots”.
If you call both Serpent Sting, a spammable GCD, and Call of the Wild, a 2-minute CD, identically “normal shots,” what is this supposed to mean???
You complain about it being obligatory, but then specifically don’t want it to be a choice node???
Warriors used to be able to throw things and use ranged weapons. This was for initiating combat and getting a mob closer for you to enact melee justice. That doesn’t seem like a good excuse to ambiguate them into a ranged/melee hybrid. Mages have SOME abilites that are melee range, and they can shoot from whatever range they want, but yet they typically stand at a distance, and for good reason. Also, most Hunter melee range abilities (not MELEE ATTACKS, to be clear) were meant to facilitate your return to range, not hang out in someone or something’s face. This seems like a disingenous argument to me.
What I’m picturing in my head are talents on the left and right that are only reachable through specific branches, but still have things closer to the middle/left and middle/right that are fire oriented or poison/pet oriented, and reachable by both sides of the tree. I’m not sure how to describe this without drawing it. You’d choose the focus dump with a dead-end branch buffing that skill specifically, but things that buff fire generally (WFB would still be usable by melee, maybe get immolation trap back in there) would still be accessible from the right side of the tree, and vice verse. I’m not doing a very good job of explaining this.
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For yall that want to dispute line for line with eachother- just go ahead and exchange discord details with eachother or something. Please stop derailing public threads.
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It was a 1.5-second cast to “Shoot” or a .5s cast to “Throw”, at that time, though. Until WotLK, it also meant stopping you from using Charge and therefore being unable to generate opening Rage. And it hit for almost nothing because its damage was based on the then-separate Ranged Attack Power. It wasn’t viable as an opener. You did not use it for initiating.
Heroic Throw, the replacement for needing a ranged weapon, hits far harder and is nonetheless available as often as you need it. They have more ranged capacity now than they ever did back then.
That’s fair… in PvP.
In grouped PvE, though, if you were expected to interrupt/CC, there was no Counter Shot, only Silencing Shot for MM (same CD as Silence), Wyvern, Intimidation (1m), Trap Launcher + Freezing Trap (WotLK onward, 30s w/o further talents, and often already used for prefight CC), and Scatter Shot (the shortest of the CDs w/o SV talents in traps), which was melee range. Unless we are to say that the PvE implications of the likes of Scatter Shot were completely unintended, just like Mage, they did occasionally have to go in to use their full kit. That’s been a commonality among a lot of ranged specs: certain of their affordances require them to go into melee. Want to Thunderstrike enemies off the mid of EotS, or to AoE interrupt via knockbacks? Totems? Used to drop at your feet, with a much shorter radius. Psychic Scream? Blast Wave? Cone of Cold? Frost Nova? (Even just Arcane’s AoE spam at all, via Arcane Explosion?) Gotta be right there. Hunter is no more or less “ranged” than those. Why would it then be uniquely essential or class-defining for Hunter?
I think I get it. And, honestly, it’d probably still be fine—just… needlessly less good than it could be, imo.
My point was simply that if the ranged-only and melee-only talents each take up, say, 12-25% of the total talents, you’d have separate RSV and MSV, each with only 75-88% of a tree available to them to choose from.
Why, then, not just allow them both 100% of a tree? There’s nothing about any of the melee skills’ functionality or ranged skills’ functionality that’d render them unfit to be a direct or near-direct mirror.
Probably the only skill hard to convert, across all Hunter abilities of any spec… is Flanking Strike, for which you could instead just have it dash to ally instead to deal assist damage and/or buff your next attack’s damage to its primary target.
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- Its choice because it allows for the given player the option of switching away from demand and try different options. Perhaps a PVP team orients itself to take more healing then utility, or a progression boss requires consistent adds management which requires additional utility or if there is a certain dungeon that just requires more self healing then it does throughput. By spreading out all three options, rationally of course with direction, it provides players to pick and choose at different levels of the tree. However, if you keep all throughput in the bottom, and a player needs just that little bit more to burst a player, or a little more dps on a progression boss where utility or healing is not an issue at all, then it allows the player to switch out from one or another. Thats what the trees are supposed to be about, not about being hyper focused about the choices players make.
- Normal shots are in rotation spells including primary cds. That is what i consider normal. SS, ES, KS, KC, WFB, RS, WB, Barrage, BW, CA, SH, TS, BS, etc… All those I consider “normal” because they make up what a spec’s primary build would be. I add CDS on this list bc they are a part of the basic set up, especially your primary CD. Another reason why I added them is because Primary Cooldowns like CA/SH should NOT be capstones. The reason is because blizz expects the player to take that CD, and by placing the CD as a capstone, its basically what i consider lazy AF. Blizz saying “lets just put a CD there and we wont have to come up with something new.” The CDs like CA should be near the top of the tree so that there is time to build on them, to let the player have practice with it leveling, and because it just makes more sense. Why spend all these talents in this or that only to realize that at the end the CD you want to use isnt the one that fits with the build. THis is particularly true with CA and bombs and SH with MB. Also, just to double down from above, putting CDs in the capstone area just tells me nimox or whoever tf who build the tree was being lazy af and needed to fill the spots. Now for instance, if WS was in the capstone area, thats fine, because its not the primary CD, it extra to the spec.
- No, i want SS to be core for Surv. Honestly, id rather see cool talents relating SS if it was placed at the top of the generic tree before any KC and KS bull crap. I just dont think it should be an option node for concussion shot. I mean, who put Concussion shot there in the first place, it should have ALWAYS been SS. Concussion can fit elsewhere.
Though attention has occasionally swung towards the spec-specific trees as well, the spec and class trees are interrelated.
Point in case:
If you don’t want SS to be obligatory for all specs, want it to be core for Survival, and don’t want it to be a choice node… shouldn’t SS then just be on the SV tree (and perhaps MM’s, a bit less centered, and/or BM, even less centrally)?
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Having KC, SS and KS as top talents doesnt make it obligatory to any spec, except surv who would start on SS.
Its just like KC with BM and KS with MM.
I wouldnt be against putting SS in the surv tree, either. I think it would fit better with bomb infusion, it would fit nicely mid to mid-left on the tree. Plus, if blizz had any imagination, it could be core for surv.
SS would fit well with BM if it was synergized with Cobra Shot, although thats 2 dots to manage, and barbed shot is enough how it is.
SS doesnt thematically fit MM tbh. I have always wondered why MM used it.
If you put throughput in the opening tier, for which there is no other point of throughput not given for free to a given spec, it absolutely will be obligatory.
It’s almost 13% mostly armor-ignoring damage per second at cost to at most a single GCD per 12s. Arcane Shot, for instance, costs 2 to 4 times as much Focus for half the damage. No one doing any real content is going to avoid that just because they don’t feel like bothering with free damage and would rather instead take Trailblazer.
An R1 Serpent Sting will not be a choice for the vast majority of players. It will be obligatory. The only way to make the choice not obligatory is to offer it an alternative within the same node; then the throughput node remains obligatory, but one need not play with Serpent Sting specifically.
Indeed. And I wouldn’t mind seeing it over to the right of the BM Tree. That’d actually be really good.
But that just brings us to the heart of the matter: If you want synergies, that’s far better provided by the Spec Trees, not the Class Tree, which is why you tend not to see many rotation-affecting means of throughput in the Class Tree.
Realism should take a backseat to gameplay. I am biased toward PvP and in those situations moving 50% faster while your opponent moves 50% slower is far more beneficial than forced movement immunity.
A point to increase the range of disengage is only expensive with the current tree since you need every point in order to get all the throughput bonuses. The tree should be mostly utility so you can make real choices, this was the philosophy of talent trees in MoP.
A 5% max health heal isn’t enough to where you’d want to hang on to disengage rather than using it normally, it’s just additional sustain. I think making this and the increased disengage distance into a choice node would be interesting.
I made a little cocept of few changes they could to to fix BM tree. I know its supposed to have some changes also this week. But somes abilities I’s really like to see back is (Titan Thunder , I called it Wild spirits in my tree to break titanstrike lore thing. And also Thunderslash)
Go to docs.google.com/document/d/1n_KYHoq_ksMRN3KUFd3Qyp5n033l3P49ovseBZUILvo/edit
Sorry I did via Photoshop and im not really great at it (But also tried to be quick)
Here is my Idea of the Hunter Tree. I think it would fix a lot of issues.
(1,1) - Bloodseeker (Passive) : Kill Command causes the target to bleed for [Ranged attack power * (0.1) * (4)] damage over 8 sec.
You and your pet gain 10% attack speed for every bleeding enemy within 12 yds.
(1,2) - Barbed Shot (Ability) : Instant 12 sec recharge (1 Charges)
Fire a shot that tears through your enemy, causing them to bleed for [(26.1% of Attack power) * 5] damage over 8 sec.
Sends your pet into a frenzy, increasing attack speed by 30% for 8 sec, stacking up to 3 times.
Generates 20 Focus over 8 sec.
(1,3) - Multi-Shot (Ability) : Fires several missiles, hitting all nearby enemies within 8 yards of your current target for (12.6% of Attack power) Physical damage
Deals reduced damage beyond 6 targets.
(2,1) - Training Expert (Passive) : All pet damage dealt increase by 10%
(2,2) - Pact Tactics (Passive) : Passive focus generation increased by 100%.
(2,3) Cobra Shot (Ability)
(2,4) Beast Cleave: (Passive) : After you Multi-Shot, your pet’s melee attacks also strike all nearby enemies for 75% as much for the next 6 sec. Deals reduced damage beyond 6 targets.
(3,1) Aspect of the Beast: (Passive) : Increases the damage and healing of your pet’s abilities by [15/30]%.
Increases the effectiveness of your pet’s Predator’s Thirst, Endurance Training, and Pathfinding passives by [25/50]%. Two Rank Talent.
(3,2) Killer Command: (Passive) : Kill Command damage increased by 20%
(3,3) Loaded Quiver: (Passive) : Barbed Shot has 1 additional charge.
(3,4)Flamewaker’s Cobra Sting: (passive) : Cobra Shot has a [15/30]% chance to make your next Kill Command consume no Focus. Two Rank Talent.
(3,5) Kill Cleave: (Passive) : While Beast Cleave is active, Kill Command now also strikes nearby enemies for 50% of damage dealt.
If Bloodseeker learned, also apply its bleeding to nearby 5 targets.
(4,1) Animal Companion: (Passive) : Your Call Pet additionally summons the first pet from your stable. This pet will obey your Kill Command, but cannot use pet family abilities.
(4,2) Killing Frenzy (Passive) : Your Kill Command critical strike chance is increased by 15% for each stack of Frenzy your pet has.
(4,3) Cobra Senses: (Passive) : Cobra Shot reduces the cooldown of Kill Command by 1.0 sec.
(4,4) Thrill of the Hunt: (Passive) : Barbed Shot increases your critical strike chance by 3% for 8 sec, stacking up to [2/3] time(s). Two Rank Talent.
(4,5) Choice Node:
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A Murder of Crows: (Ability) : Summons a flock of crows to attack your target, dealing Physical damage over 15 sec. If the target dies while under attack, A Murder of Crows’ cooldown is reset.
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Bloodshed: (Ability) Command your pet to tear into your target, causing your target to bleed for 18 sec and increase all damage taken from your pet by 15% for 18 sec.
(5,1) Serrated Jaws (Passive) : Kill Command has a 40% chance to deal an additional X damage and grant your Pet 5 Focus.
(5,2) Bestial Wrath: (Ability) : Sends you and your pet into a rage, instantly dealing Physical damage to its target, and increasing all damage you both deal by 25% for 15 sec. Removes all crowd control effects from your pet.
(5.3) Wild Call: (Passive) : Your auto shot critical strikes have a 20% chance to reset the cooldown of Barbed Shot.
(6,1) Dire Beast: (Ability) Summons a powerful wild beast that attacks the target and roars, increasing your Haste by 5% for 8 sec.
(6,2) Hunter T20 2p (Passive) : Cobra Shot, Multi-shot, and Kill Command increase the damage bonus of Bestial Wrath by [2/3%] for its remaining duration. Max 10stacks. Two Rank Talent.
(6,3) Scent of Blood: (Passive) : Activating Bestial Wrath grants 2 charges of Barbed Shot.
(6,4) Barbed Wrath: (Passive) : Barbed Shot reduces the cooldown of Bestial Wrath by [6/12] sec. If Aspect of the Wild is learned also reduce its cooldown by [4/8] sec. Two Rank Talent.
(6,5) One with the Pack: (Passive) : Wild Call has a [10/20] % increased chance to reset the cooldown of Barbed Shot. Two Rank Talent.
(7,1) Stomp: When you cast Barbed Shot, your pet stomps the ground, dealing Physical damage to all nearby enemies.
(7,2) Choice Node:
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Killer Cobra: (Passive) : While Bestial Wrath is active, Cobra Shot resets the cooldown on Kill Command.
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Rylakstalker’s Piercing Fangs: (Passive) : While Bestial Wrath is active, your pet’s critical damage dealt is increased by 35%.
(7,3) Qa’pla, Eredun War Order: (Passive) : Barbed Shot deals [10/20]% increased damage, and applying Barbed Shot has a [50/100]% chance to reset the cooldown of Kill Command. Two Rank Talent.
(8,1) Pack Resilience (Passive) : Dire beast lasts an additional [1/2] sec and deals [20/40]% increase damage. Two Rank Talent.
(8,2) Dire Command:(Passive) : Kill Command has a [15/30]% chance to also summon a Dire Beast to attack your target. Two Rank Talent.
(8,3) Aspect of the Wild: (Ability) : Grants you and your pet 5 Focus per sec and 10% increased critical strike chance for 20 sec.
(8,4) Blood Frenzy (Passive) : Barbed Shot has a [15/30]% to apply [2/3] stack of frenzy
(8,5) Call of the Wild: (Ability) : You sound the call of the wild, summoning 2 of your active pets for 20 sec. During this time, a random pet from your stable will appear every 4 sec to assault your target for 6 sec.
(9,1) Wild Spirits (Ability) :100 yd range / Instant 1 min cooldown
Evoke the energy of Wild Spirits from all your pets and Dire Beasts causing them to deal up to (Ranged attack power * 1.15 * 0.5 * 1) Nature damage to their target every 1 sec. for 8 sec.
Also causes the next pet frenzy caused by Barbed Shot to deal (42% of Attack power) additional Nature damage on each of the 5 attacks
(9,2) Dire Pack (Passive) : Every 5 Dire beasts summoned resets the cooldown of Kill Command, and reduces the focus cost, and cooldown of Kill Command by 50% for 8 sec.
(9,3) Wild Empowerment (Passive) : Increase the duration of Aspect of the Wild by 5 sec, and grant 1 charge of Barbed Shot every 5 sec.
(9,4) Feeding Frenzy (Passive) : Barbed Shot duration, and Frenzy’s duration is increased by [1/2] sec. Two Rank Talent.
While Barbed Shot bleeding is active, each damaging ability you or your pet use against the target will strike the target for (38.5% of Attack power) Nature damage.
(9,5) Choice Node:
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Wild Instincts: (Passive) : While Call of the Wild is active, Barbed Shot has a 25% chance to gain a charge any time Focus is spent.
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Bloody Frenzy: (Passive) : While Call of the Wild is active, Barbed Shot affects all of your summoned pets.
(10,1) In for the Kill: (Passive) : Barbed Shot bleeding has a [3/6]% chance to reset the cooldown of Kill Shot, and causes your next Kill Shot to be usable on any target, regardless of the target’s health. Two Rank Talent.
(10,2) Wailing Arrow: (Ability) : Fire an enchanted arrow, dealing Shadow damage to your target and additional Shadow damage to all enemies within 8 yds of your target. Targets struck by a Wailing Arrow are silenced for 5 sec.
Bruv, this aint alpha feedback forums.
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Even against a Death Knight or Druid w/ Ursoc’s?
Aye, but there’s a difference between a small breech of realism and “Being stuck in tar makes me go zoom!”
Yeah, I’d dig that (so long as the added disengage duration does so via increased speed and arc, rather than additional time without control over character movement). Sounds good.
Just select the link and hit the </> symbol above (Pre-formatted Text) and you won’t have to put in a space, allowing others to just select and right click → “Go To…” the link.
It might also be useful to make clearer at a glance which nodes you’ve changed in their position and/or effects.
That said, so far this is looking like a net improvement. Some quick feedback:
- The Wild Spirits rework seems a bit overly simple and single-target focused.
- The new position of Aspect of the Wild seems a bit odd, but I kind of like the idea of not being forced to take it and have it detract from the CD focus on/of Bestial Wrath.
- Not a fan of OwtP still being just a Wild Call Part 2, though I guess it at least makes sense from a pathing perspective if Wild Call would otherwise be excessively powerful per point or its maximum gameplay impact too low, and at least its been buffed to no longer be only half as efficient as Wild Call.
- I like the new immediate Bestial Wrath upgrades.
- Feeding Frenzy’s latter effect (quoted below) looks likely greatly overpowered.
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If you use the Preformatted text option, it won’t appear as a link, thus allowing normal posters to post the link without added spaces.
Sadly, that won’t be possible without the link, which most of us won’t have permission to post.
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Thanks I think I manged to do it. I wished I could of showeda picture instead but baby steps XD
I think my ‘‘Trust level’’ is too low to add link sadly. Well too bad I guess at least I tried ^^
Haha well its just Titan Thunder ability from Legion Artifact just with anoter name so it doesnt break the ‘‘Hati’’ thing with thunder. I liked that ability and I was sad to not seeing it back.
Well I chose to put it lower cause you can get Bestial stronger similar to other class (Pally with Wrath in diff node or Druid with Incarnation) And well sinse added an effect I tough it could be interesting to see i the same way.
I tried to make 1 Arrow style path while the other is more Kill Command related with a middle ground of getting buff.
I mean lots of class had their buff into multiples nodes so I tough why not BM too.
Haha Well It could be nerfed I mean I tried to mixt the efect of SL Wild Spirit into the Arrow path. It would be n tough you have to admit it
Yeah cause black ice could be used to outmaneuver even ranged classes when LoS is involved. The radius of ice trap could surround most pillars.
Warlock class tree just had a lot of utility talents replace throughput talents. Hunters need that to an even greater degree.
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