Community Council discussion on Hunter design

Classes Hunter
303

Sorry, but no.

  1. Top of tree to thin.
  2. Why are you forcing lunge for catrops?
  3. Why are traps overtaking bombs?
  4. Why are traps on bomb side?
  5. Why did you keep nesingwary’s?
  6. Why skip so many talent rows in bottom 3rd, our tree is the smallest already.
  7. Why are you putting so much emphasis on eagle? You are literally sacrificing thousands of dps for range and it would never be viable.

Its obvious that you are a pvper. The pve hunter community has outright spoken against rotational trap play. Your forcing it into the bomb side when there is plenty of room elsewhere. Also, eagle is at best a 2nd tier talent. Third, lunge needs to be 1 point or baked in. Plus, you didnt even touch the defensives that hunters desperately needs.

2/10

304

in like some of the ideas that Isefka has, some could be made to work, some could use refinement. BUT the idea of using old traits and talents we had in previous expacs and we working them now for DF I believe is the way to go about it. The DEV’s already have access to it in the DB, easier to rework and tune, and BOOM new tree for SV. This is what they did with Shamans, why not us?

305

like i said its not perfect

  1. yes you are right the top of the tree is thin it mostly come down to i didn’t want to make ability and cool passif out of my a** on a fan made wet dream tree that will probably never be a thing

2.lunge is in the middle row where both side can easily go down and get it and the last row of the middle tree is aspect of the sky lord like in legion where it become a very powerful cd. and i mean aspect of the eagle is needed for that part sure its low in the tree but if not you could avoid aspect of the eagle and get aspect of the sky lord it would be weird.

  1. i dont know having trap stuff with bomb stuff made sense in the way its all gadget type of stuff.

4.same as 3.

5.when i made this i didn’t check the trait and was think it was as strong as in legion but i know its dog poopoo since then

6.over all i man the tree bigger like i said in #1 its just a mockup to give a idea of how i would like thing to be i could put more time into it and make it perfect. i might in the future . or not

7.like i said in # 2 the last row of middle is aspect of the skylord a 30% increase damage for the duration of aspect of the eagle it is not a weak talents it make eagle not just for range but for damage

no im no pvper im mostly pve player you can tell the right side with mongoose bite side way more flesh out since its mostly what i would like to see come back the left side ive try to do something but was hard to find older thing that was fitting the bomb stuff.

306

thank you for the reply
i mostly want the old mongoose bit to come back its mostly what this tree is about if you dont look at the left side (its pretty rough) the right side is where ive put most of my time.

i dint know what to do with the bomb side the why its so weird and i just put old thing that i liked that did not really made a lot of sense .

307

Originally posted in: https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/en/wow/t/feedback-hunter-class-talents-beast-mastery/1276343/149

Regarding issues with hunter survivability

Taking another look at the changes they announced just the other day. Specifically, what they said about replacing Improved Exhilaration with Rejuvenating Wind(Endurance Conduit from SL).

  • Improved Exhilaration (the pet healing) is now part of the baseline Exhilaration ability. This has been replaced with Rejuvenating Wind.

Looking at the tooltip of that conduit, it reads like this:

Rejuvenating Wind
Exhilaration heals you for an additional 10.0% of your maximum health over 8 sec.

Accounting for my own hunter, based on the average 5min simulation, with optimal play, I’d spend around 18 Focus/sec. With that in mind, based on that I’ve also taken the talent Natural Mending(2/2) which reduces the remaining cooldown of Exhilaration by 1 sec for every 12 Focus I spend, I would reduce the remaining CD of Exhil by an additional 1.5 sec, on top of the regular cooldown count. In short, this equates to how the cooldown of Exhil is reduced by a total of 2.5sec for every second that passes.

With a base CD of 2min for Exhilaration, this would mean that it will be back off CD after about 48 seconds, again with optimal usage/Focus spending. In reality, it will probably be closer to every 55-60sec.

Where am I going with this?

Well. What if they add this talent – Rejuvenating Wind, but they also add a small damage reduction effect to it, let’s say 15-20% DR, for the duration of the Rejuvenating Wind(8 sec)?

The tooltip of the talent could read:

Rejuvenating Wind
Exhilaration heals you for an additional 5/10% of your maximum health over 8 sec.

While you’re under the effect of Rejuvenating Wind, you also take 10/20% less damage.

This would basically provide us with a discount Barkskin, every minute or so, assuming that we’ve also talented into Natural Mending 2/2. If we haven’t, it would instead be every 2min, which was the base duration of Exhilaration.

I can’t post this feedback on the alpha forums as I don’t have access, but if this sounds decent enough, feel free to forward this post, or it’s contents.

Heck, I would even suggest that they make it into a choice node.

Choice node, pick one of the following talents

[Rejuvenating Wind] - Exhilaration heals you for an additional 20% of your maximum health over 8 sec.

While you’re under the effect of Rejuvenating Wind you also take 20% less damage.

[Deterrence] - Instant - 10 sec duration - 2.5 min cooldown
Reduces all damage taken by 40% for 10 sec.

308

I expect Rejuvenating Winds will be 10/20, not 5/10. 10% is the base level conduit, and it gets up over 30% at high ilvl.

I’d rather they just have Binding Shackles work if the CC effect is resisted, and apply general DR rather than mob specific. That would give you two separate options to proc the DR on short cooldown. Most builds will take Binding Shackles anyway due to it’s position on the tree, while Rejuvenating Wind will require some adjustment to your build (unless they make RW connect to Intimidation/HE Trap, which they should).

309

Perhaps. Though, I would prefer if it was 5/10% HoT + the 10/20% DR, over a 10/20% HoT.

Considering what you, and many others have said in discussions like this, in the past, it would then force you to use utility/CC purely for a defensive purpose, rather than tying the DR to an actual defensive ability. In this case, I’d much rather they focus on implementing defensive effects into defensive-oriented abilities.

Binding Shackles is planned to work with any combination of Scatter Shot, Explosive Trap, Binding Shot, and Intimidation.

They said that the class tree will be reworked in terms of its structure/layout. So I wouldn’t bet on Binding Shackles still being a “mandatory” pick. Could it still be? Perhaps. Though I would much prefer something like the above, and let Binding Shackles stay as it is for more situational and/or PvP-purposes.

310

This would be a good way to implement some DR to hunters for sure. Giving us a reason to use traps, binding and intimidate etc for damage reduction. Might not be what you would like in open world or some times in PvP but if it worked on spell use/trigger and not just on landing the CC then it would be neat.

The global DR instead of just on the affected target would be very strong but also make it easier to use. But perhaps it will add the DR effect to all effected mobs/players? For example binding shot that snares 5 mobs (even if immune) will get 20% DR against you. Would make things like tar trap, binding shot and possibly explosive trap good options for group DR.

311

These are some good points as well. Sounds like Binding shackles wont be in the same mandatory spot and it would be weird to use a CC ability just to get some DR. But IMO it would be as weird as having to choose between a 30% heal or a 20% DR on the same ability.

I say just give us Deterrence (or a new ability) back for DR and be done with it. No one would be mad at that :slight_smile:

1 Like
312

Choose? You’d get both.

313

But… You would Never get both effects at the same time. Sure you do but it does not add to our survivability in any other way than making the ability stronger.
Like I explained in my post. For the ability to be used as a DR ability the incoming damage would have to be damage equal or more to 150% of your max HP, and it would have to be dealt in one hit. Other wise the heal is always the better choice, due to being worth more HP.

314

Not entirely sure if I understand you correctly here.

My suggestion was this:

Rejuvenating Wind
Exhilaration heals you for an additional 5/10% of your maximum health over 8 sec.

While you’re under the effect of Rejuvenating Wind, you also take 10/20% less damage.

Taking this talent would mean that everytime you use Exhil, you’d get the instant 30% heal + the 10% HoT over 8 sec + a 20% DR for those 8 sec. You could use Exhil to top yourself off before a big hit of incoming damage, and you’d then also have that DR up when the actual hit comes, reducing the damage it deals to you by 20%.

Heck, I would even suggest that they make it into a choice node. Like per what you suggested in the other topic.

Choice node, pick one of the following talents

[Rejuvenating Wind] - Exhilaration heals you for an additional 20% of your maximum health over 8 sec.

While you’re under the effect of Rejuvenating Wind you also take 20% less damage.

[Deterrence] - Instant - 10 sec duration - 2.5 min cooldown
Reduces all damage taken by 40% for 10 sec.

315

Ok. Let’s do some math here then.

This is all just made up numbers to make the math easier. And let’s leave rejuvenating winds out of it because that is identic in both cases. And would be helpful in both cases.

I am a hunter with 100k health.
I take 30k damage from a/some attacks. So if I had used my exhilaration for the 20% DR that would have prevented 6k damage. Leaving me with 74k hp after the attack.
But if I had waited till after the attack and just used exhilaration after it I would be back to 100k hp
So it is clear that to use exhilaration as a DR ability is by far the inferior choice.

And this is true all the way up to a Killing blow attack. Case:
100k health pool and let’s say we take 100k health in a few attacks. So you potentially have time to use exhilaration before death. Then it would be worth 30k healing/ health points. And the DR would also kick in potentially removing 20k damage (depending on how they decide to calculate it). This means in this scenario it would be a very strong ability. But would not really add to our survivability because it’s still just one ability. It is stronger so survivability is higher, I guess. But we do not have any more tools for survival (this is the topic that has always been discussed. It is not that people think exhilaration is too weak, necessarily, but that we lack tools for survival).

Let’s see what is needed to make the ability actually worth more as a proactive DR and not a reactive heal look like:
100k HP and we take 150k damage in One hit. This would be a killing blow. Because if we use it as a heal we’d already be dead… doh! and if we use it proactively as DR we’d still take 120k damage and die. So while in theory it would at this point become stronger than the heal we’d be dead so…

Then we come to the case where using it as a DR ability (as DR abilities should be used) would save us. We’d need to take from 100k-125k damage in one hit for it to save us. We’d still be alive and hence the spell would have been used correctly. But strictly speaking its still weaker than the 30k healing from the heal. The heal would, most likely, be mostly wasted since you more often than not are topped off.

So, conclusion:
Your example would make Exhilaration stronger for sure, but tuning to exhilaration is no the problem, it’s the lack of tools.
And if used as a reactive tool the heal is the best always. And if used proactive the incoming damage must be in One hit and hit from 100-125k damage for it to ever be better. Lower and the heal is better and higher and we’re dead anyway.

Perhaps that clarified why I think it is not a good suggestion? The core problem with our survivability is not the strength of our 2 abilities but rather the lack of additional tools (like a DR ability). And to give us DR on our heal would not solve the problem since the right time to use it will 99% of the time be reactively (the DR could be useful then as well, but not as a DR ability. It would just be bonus strength to the ability) as a Heal. Better to then get a DR ability that we can use proactively when we take damage or reactively when we are low, if exhilaration is on CD.

1 Like
316

You’re right, provided that you are at full health(or close to) when you make that choice. Very often during progression do I find myself having to use Exhil to preemptively get my health topped off, before high amounts of incoming damage. Fairly often, again, during progression, do you end up in a situation where you’re quite low on health, and the heal from Exhilaration alone, most likely, won’t be enough. At such times, it would be very useful with that additional effect as part of Rejuvenating Wind.

In fact, it’s more common, in my experience, to find myself in a case like this, over what you said about being at full health, and then would be in a situation of having to use Exhil preemptively for the DR. And in doing so, wasting the heal, either in the moment, or in the near future following that event.

Again, though, obviously getting an additional DR as a stand-alone ability would be optimal.

3 Likes
317

Utility for defensives is not remotely the same as utility for damage.

The point of utility/DR is to have a tool on demand to use when you need it. Choosing “do I use Binding Shot to root these enemies or apply DR?” is decision making. “I don’t have Tar Trap or Flare to use when I need them because I have to use them on cooldown for damage” isn’t.

318

True, but then, if you’re in a scenario, like The Hivemind in Ny’alotha, where you fight a boss, and both your Intimidation, and Binding Shot is required/reserved to CC or otherwise manage adds that come in at specific times?

What do you do then, if you find that you need the DR inbetween those windows?

319

Survival of the Fittest. Aspect of the Turtle. Get a PW:S from a Priest. Hope the fight timers are tuned such that I have enough time between a big hit and an add wave that my CC-DR abilities are off CD.

Or, I accept that a solution that makes things better in many scenarios might not be perfect in every scenario, and I take the gains I can get without letting perfect be the enemy of better.

320

Wouldn’t something like this be better, yet still not perfect, then?

(I’d even suggest to have Binding Schackles replaced by such a choice node)

Choice node, pick one of the following talents

[Rejuvenating Wind] - Exhilaration heals you for an additional 20% of your maximum health over 8 sec.

While you’re under the effect of Rejuvenating Wind you also take 20% less damage.

[Deterrence] - Instant - 10 sec duration - 2.5 min cooldown
Reduces all damage taken by 40% for 10 sec.

321

No. I’ll take Deterrence over Binding Shackles if given a choice node there, but I want healing to be healing, not DR. Burning a healing ability at full health to get some DR that kicks in after the fact is never going to feel good.

322

Fair enough. Though, when/how often would you actually find yourself in a situation like that? Where you would have to make that choice? I can’t even remember the last time I had to deal with a mechanic that would kill me quickly enough, to the point where I wouldn’t have time to make use of the heal, as well as gaining sufficient use of a potential DR…