KC is a spender. MSV has some weird bastardized version of it as a builder, but the ability has always been a spender up until BfA MSV. It was class wide in TBC and Wrath, then BM only for Cata/MoP/WoD/Legion.
When it was available to MM, it wasn’t used in 99% of scenarios (maybe in PvP if your pet had LoS on a target and you didn’t). It was garbage dps, and you were better off casting Steady Shot.
After patch 2.1 Kill Command was off GCD so you macro’d it in with the rest of your abilities. The original wasn’t a signature nuke like the current BM one though; I think that came in 5.0.
I never did - wasn’t worth the mana cost and having to spend more time in Viper, at least not as MM. Maybe the Expose Weakness SV Hunters used it, idk, I never ran SV back then.
I will ask in the classic Hunter discord because I know MM was a lot more mana intensive than SV but it’s hard to pass up an off-GCD damage boost.
To be clear, I’m speaking from personal experience, didn’t raid at a high level in TBC, and have not touched TBC classic. I was all about the feelycraft back then, and spending mana for a pittance of pet damage did not feel good as MM.
They think it’s probably worth casting but I understand that sentiment. As SV it’s probably more DPS to glyph Explosive Trap and trap dance with that instead of Black Arrow (they shared a CD) but that sounds very annoying so I will probably only do it in AoE.
History aside, it’s not about how it used to be but an idea for what it could be. I get your sentiment, but with the current tree set up MM will have access to it again and I, personaly, would like to see them at least try to do something new with it this go around.
This is just player feedback, in a feedback thread, from a player.
I see your point. I am also providing feedback. I, personally, have zero interest whatsoever in giving MM any incentive to spend talents on the pet for DPS. I use and enjoy my pets when soloing, but I categorically do not want to use a pet as MM in group PvE scenarios.
If there are KC related talents in the MM tree, they will need to be competitive with Kill Shot talents or they will never be picked, and if Blizz screws up the balancing (which let’s be honest is entirely possible), we will then have 3 specs dependent on the pet for core DPS abilities.
If there are to be KC related talents, put them in the Class tree, gated by KC. That way they aren’t in your way (or serving as a trap for new players) if you haven’t specced into KC.
Also this allows for the bizarre situation where you can spec into Kill Command and Lone Wolf at the same time.
Its already that way lol
I mean Lone Wolf should be a baseline passive choice for MM, just as Animal Companion should be for BM. Tune both so the damage differential is negligible (Lone Wolf will always be better in AoE, but they can be on par in ST, and the loss of pet utility offsets the AoE gains).
I like how maizou is bringing up valid points, however, can we get a realistic CC member bring up real concerns about the hunter trees, especially surv?
No, not just that there are too many 3 point nodes. More like why our bomb side has garbo talents like deadly duo and why it ends with 2 none-bomb talents? Or why bomb clusters and mad bombadier isnt on there when they are the sole reason surv has been viable for the first time in years?
Even so, why we ended up with the bad nesingwary’s instead of a better leggo, or why pets are blocked behind traps or why we got the WORST covenant ability out of all of them?
Soooo many issues need addressed.
Pretty much what Ingvaeonic said.
Our talents is core to our gameplay and our feedback was about… pets?
Another member of the CC (Maizou) actually said that the new Coordinated Assault was good. Sure the old Coordinated Assault was bland and boring but how in the world is the new CA good? CA only effects Kill Shot (in ST), which means we have to spec into Deadly Duo (which is 3 talent points), which means we have to invest points into making KC worth pressing. That feels god awful.
Anyway here’s a shameless plug to feedback I wrote up. In the eyes of many experienced hunters, there is a lot of work needed on the hunter talent trees. Please put up a good fight for your fellow hunter’s out there. We just want our class to not be boring.
Also, no flame to the CC members. Gamers are passionate and since CC is the closest thing we’ll have to communicating with the devs, we expect a lot from ya’ll. And Maizou did point out a lot of good things about the class talent tree (missed some too…), so no hate from here.
I would say switch place with Exp Shot. That way Serpent is more optional being at the bottom of the class tree. This is especially so with Serpenstalker being on the mm spec tree.
Or what Surv was prior to Legion when it was ranged
This is what I have been saying since Legion .
Let Aimed be cast on the move but give it a buff if done standing still.
That’s what they should of done . They could of made both msurv and rsurv people happy and the whole argument since Legion would of finally been put to bed and all they would of had to worry about going forward would be “Take away all things void from velfs and rename them High Elves” as far as major forum arguments go .
Dual Wield would be a nice thing to consider as well while, IF, they decided to revamp Surv a bit. Would add lots to the class fantasy, and overall flavor for hunters, that damn off-hand slot is there already. Cheers!
My biggest concern for survival is the talent bloat. Not only does it have the most total points in the tree - it also has the fewest node choices. We have also been told for years that blizzard has been emphasizing removing uninteresting passive bonuses from trees - and survival is filled to the brim with those.
Survival has a whopping 58 total points in the tree - 4 more than the next highest and 15 whole points more than the slimmest tree (being Resto Druid). The biggest offender in this disparity? 3 point talents. Survival hunter has 9 nodes that require 3 points. Resto druid has zero. Even by doing something as simple as cutting every one of these to a 2 point talent, survival is brought much closer to the average of the rest of the trees.
Now, some of these 3 point effects (albeit many should not be 3 points for the amount of power given but that’s a tangent I will hold off on) have interesting, gameplay affecting effects. Tip of the Spear, Explosives Expert, Deadly Duo, are all effects that change how the spec is played fundamentally and I understand why they are included. However, given Blizzard’s philosophy toward removing boring +%damage effects from talent trees, WHY are things like Ferocity, Improved Wildfire Bomb, Sweeping Spear, Sharp Edges, Precision, included? The last two are particularly offensive toward this philosophy, being some of the most boring passive effects in the game that I’ve seen within the Dragonflight Talent Trees.
Furthermore, why are the passive effects that we are given SO much more costly than similar effects from other classes?
Lunge costs 3 points to gain the exact same effect that Acrobatic Strikes from rogue gives for 1.
Predator is a resource-generation proc that costs 3 points. Omen of Clarity costs 1 point. Frigid Executioner/Rage of the Frozen Champion costs 1 point. Shadow Techniques costs 1 point.
Survival is not the only spec that has talents that only affect one ability and only grant small flat damage boosts to them. Frost DK has one for obliterate and frost strike, Unholy DK has one for Festering Strike, Assassin has one for Fan of Knives - Survival is, however, the LOWEST impact of any of these. Improved wildfire bombs grants 8.3% per rank. Improved Kill Command only gives 5% (and Kill Command is already the single weakest damage spell in our kit). All of the other specs with very narrow focused talents give at least 10% for spells that are very high impact.
Our capstones are clumsy. Coordinated Assault, Coordinated Kill, and Birds of prey have almost zero synergy between the three of them.
Coordinated Assault affects such a narrow part of our kit which in and of itself isn’t necessarily bad - but Kill Shot isn’t a part of the kit outside of a different capstone path.
Coordinated Kill feels particularly out of place because Survival has zero critical strike synergy unless you include the incredibly lackluster 6% crit damage bonus talent.
Birds of Prey is fine - great, even… but since Raptor strike isn’t buffed by Coordinated Assault it just doesn’t make sense
Fury of the Eagle is making a comeback - hooray - why is it on the opposite side of the tree from Kill Command’s flat damage buff?
Energetic Ally will only see niche use in Mongoose Bite builds but again, is on the opposite side of the tree.
Aspect of the Eagle is cool utility and makes a lot of sense being right near lunge - but you can ONLY take AotE by putting three points in Sharp Edges.
Deadly Duo is awesome - its so cool seeing the spirit of Flayed Shot live on since Venth Survival was my favorite back in sanctum BUT it costs 3 points to get a measly 3.75% proc chance, and if you are relying on this effect to get any use out of Explosives Expert then you are likely to see less than one proc per minute from EE.
Wildfire Infusion is the only thing that I am actually happy about in that part of the capstone
Precision is so. incredibly. lame. 6% crit chance? In a spec that has ZERO crit synergy? snooze. It’s unfortunate that Spearhead is the only interesting toy on the bottom of the tree because it has to go through the most boring talent imaginable.
Survival is unique in that it has such a long history of being rewritten - and as such it has an incredibly diverse pool of abilities that are no longer in game that could be added. Why is our tree the smallest with the most number of passive +damage buffs when we could have things like more Sting spells, more Trap spells/synergies, and Black Arrow - all of which are things that the community already wants and would both add depth to the tree and remove bloat.
I really hope that the next iteration of the survival tree looks nothing like the current one
I rather not try to flame ppl but what valid points are they bringing up? Latest post in hunter thread seemed spend most of text in something, thats completely tuning dependant. Like carve is frontal while butchery is AoE around you. Also the charges.
I assume they will be tuned in a way where carve actually hits harder, while butchery is the newbie friendly choice with charges/AoE thats harder to miss. The fact they are arguing carve serves no purpose w/o seeing any numbers is imo just a bad take.
As for the 2nd point of bringing raid utility, I think they should just give pets raid buffs so you have easier time managing raid buffs. It could even include DH/Monk ones but I dunno really how MM would bring those as they dont be using pet while BM/SV would work great with that. Even the buffs like mage/warrior/priest you MM would probably need to have pet out to cast the buff before dismissing it. So its for sure not the cleanest way of doing it but imo hunter would be the perfect class for duplicate raid buffs.
This because lack of raid utility isnt specific to SV, its a hunter wide problem. I do understand getting melee spot is however harder but that should come from tuning where SV is just competitive with other melees.
This is bad at 3 points. It would be far better at 1 point for some lower % chance to proc.
Yeah this is bad and should be replaced.
Every spec has a Flayed Shot like talent. Resonating Arrow or Wild Spirits would be nice as a choice with Death Chakrams, but sometimes I want to press a button and not have to aim a reticle, I can see why Death Chakrams is in there.
In a theoretical situation where the old Explosive Shot returns, I don’t think it should be named Explosive Shot. The current ES is more fitting mechanically/aesthetically to its name, and as-designed is not a bad ability in itself; I wouldn’t want to lose it. The single target three-tick fiery burst could be called “Incendiary Shot”. I would be fine with that, so long as it retained the graphics and gameplay within the rotation.
Oh please don’t give Blizz any ideas of Brining the Legion version of Explosive back . That double press version can rot in the Maw for all I care
What we have now is more in line to pre Legion where it was fire and forget