Community Council discussion on Hunter design

I think i’d personally argue that MB should be the baseline and Raptor should be a dps option that’s still a >>>small<<< dps increase so you don’t have to play mb, but small enough that it’s not worth a talent point invested in it, unless you actively hate mb (so prob in the bottom of the tree).

Simply because MB is the “flavor” of survival, without it or wildfire there is nothing to the spec.

I actually love this idea. It would be much more satisfying if Wildfire Infusion was higher in the tree and instead of Improved Wildfire Bomb being a 2-point basic 25% damage buff, we had talents that improved the individual bombs that ultimately added up to 25% more damage. Shrapnel Bomb’s bleed could proc Kill Shot and Kill Shot could refresh the bleed; Volatile Bomb could apply/refresh Serpent Sting and cause the Violent Reaction to targets already affected by Serpent Sting (I’m not sure that Violent Reaction is still a part of the effect of Volatile Bomb after they changed it); and as you say perhaps Pheromone Bomb also increases the crit chance of Kill Command.

If you look at Windwalker’s tree, their power ups are things like “Rising Sun Kick has a 25% chance to trigger a second time, and restore 1 Chi” or “When Fists of Fury deals damage, it has a 5% chance to refund 1 Chi, and deal additional damage.” I’m sure you could sim those out and say “alright the first one is a 10% buff to Rising Sun Kick, the second one is a 6-7% buff to Fists of Fury,” but it’s just a more interesting way to do it.

I’m not saying that we need more active buttons or that we necessarily need more interactivity in our rotation (though we might). I am just saying that I think the flat % damage buffs are uninspired and could very easily be something more interesting, especially if they are going to cost multiple points.

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I like it.

More polished for sure. I didn’t think BFA rotation was far off. CDR on MB tightened up the st rotation when haste was low, the crit chance modifier on MB made getting in 5 stack hits in satisfying, latent poison made multi-doting with SS fun with a bonus if you had Volatile Bomb up and the addition of that azerite neck execute ability rounded off the profile nicely. It was kinda hectic at times and probably didnt fit neatly into some min/max pve aoe or st scenarios, but it played very well in pvp.

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Today was my students’ first day back at school. It was a good day, but it really knocked the wind out of my sails.

I’ve composed a rough outline of my post on BM and SV. I’ll work a bit on it tonight, and we’ll see how far I can go tomorrow.

(Don’t worry about this being “work.” It’s legitimately fun to me, I’m just… very tired, I really want to just eat lasagna and watch TV.)

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Happy start of the school year! A post timed around Friday might actually get the most traction – I’m sure Nimox reads all of the Alpha Feedback thread because there have been changes based on suggestions in there even without Nimox’s direct interaction, but they have definitely been more active on Fridays.

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New build today, new notes on alpha forums:

My thoughts are as follows -

Good:

  • Improved Traps change is nice for Steel Trap builds, but I still see this as a niche or PvP option, and the value proposition at 2 points is dubious.
  • Connection between Tranq Shot and Intimidation/HE Trap makes Stampede/DC much more accessible for BM/SV.
  • Death Chakram increasing all damage is much appreciated. Nice indirect buff to a variety of abilities.
  • Aside from Dead Eye, all the Kill Shot talents are in one area, which feels great. Rapid Fire is similar, with everything other than Focused Aim and Double Tap in a contiguous area.
  • Swapping the costs of Legacy and Guidance makes sense, and makes that point in Guidance feel much more valuable.
  • Lone Wolf is almost skippable in the current tree for those who want MM with pet.
  • Wailing Arrow is more accessible to AoE builds primarily focused on the left side of the tree, which is great, especially for M+ where an extra silence will be much appreciated.
  • I LOVE Salvo applying to Volley as well. The fact that Salvo’s 45 sec CD lines up perfectly with Volley is fantastic.
  • Bombardment change is great, both the positioning and the cost reduction.
  • I love the idea of Bulletstorm as a constant passive AoE damage amp. The ability to get a 10 stack with Volley or a consistent 7 stack with Light Ammo is fantastic. There is anti-synergy with Heavy Ammo, not sure whether this is intended.
  • I love the Calling the Shots redesign, it is a flat improvement to the value of literally every active talent we take aside from Rapid Fire.

Not So Good:

  • CDR nerf on Lone Survivor is not ideal. I’d rather have the additional CDR and ditch the 2 sec extension if it’s a budget issue.
  • Zero other negative feedback on changes. You guys are consistently making good changes every build, kudos.

Still An Issue:

  • Hunter’s Agility still feels like a dead talent, at least for PvE. Even if it was 1 point for 8% dodge, I’d still skip it every time, because most of the damage I want to reduce in PvE ignores dodge in the first place.
  • Binding Shackles is still a bit underwhelming as-is.
  • Lone Wolf is still gating Hunter’s Knowledge. 10% crit to Aimed Shot and Rapid Fire is difficult to pass up.
  • The spec fundamentally doesn’t work without an active Focus generator. You can make a build that skips both Improved Steady Shot and Rapid Fire, which is a noob trap.
  • In general, the top tier of the MM tree feels very expensive. There are multiple 2 point nodes that are critically important to have any kind of functioning rotation, and it starts to feel like bloat designed to prevent you from taking more interesting talents in the second tier.
  • Dead Eye feels really out of place on the other side of the tree. Ideally it should connect to Deathblow, as the proc mechanic gives the second charge more value (and vice versa), because it prevents CD munching under 20%.

Suggested Changes:

  • I’d like to see Lone Survivor back up to 1 minute CDR.
  • I’d like to see Hunter’s Agility swap to a choice node with Aspect of the Monkey (8% dodge) as one choice, and a blanket say 6% DR (Aspect of the Iron Hawk?), or maybe 8% chance to resist magical damage (maybe bring back the Aspect of the Viper name and icon?).
  • I’d like to see Improved Traps incorporate Hi Explosive Trap as well, along with a cost reduction to one point, and a shift towards the left side of the class tree so it’s more accessible to trap-focused builds.
  • I’d like to see Binding Shackles cover all 4 choice node CC abilities. I’d also like to see it apply the DR if the CC effect is resisted or the target is immune, as that would give it much better value in raids.
  • I’d like to see Lone Wolf stay as it is on live - a baseline passive choice.
    • If it has to remain a talent, it should be moved so it isn’t gating anything.
    • Possible swaps are with Improved Steady Shot or Hunter’s Knowledge, both of which have adjacent nodes with diagonals to the node below.
  • It might be interesting to combine Killing Blow and Careful Aim into a 1-point choice node, so you are choosing which phase of the fight to be more effective in.
    • This would also open up Careful Aim’s node positioning, which would allow Hunter’s Knowledge to shift to the right, which would also eliminate Lone Wolf being a hard gate to other talents.
  • I’d like to see Improved Steady Shot be baseline for MM. I think having to spend a point just for the spec to function feels bad.
  • I’d like to see Dead Eye moved somewhere closer to Deathblow. A second charge of Kill Shot has little value without a reset mechanic, and the reset mechanic has the potential to munch Kill Shot CD under 20% if you don’t have a second charge.
  • I’d like to see some of the top tier talents reduced from 2 points to 1 - Crack Shot and Precise Shots in particular.
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You equated MB to just a suped up RS… You missed the fact that the MB window creates an entirely different playstyle…

Yes… it is true… We have to buy RS to get MB… Then we can’t use RS…

Well yes actually that is effectively the exact same thing… We are paying for one playstyle to be locked into another one because its literally the only core focus spender for the entire spec…

Please show me where? No one is forcing you to buy Steady Shot and then down the road ask you to buy Barbed Shot. No one is forcing you to Buy Barbed shot first then replace barbed shot with Summon Dire Beast.

No one is forcing Arms to buy Slam at level 11 then replace it with Mortal Strike? No one is forcing Fury to buy Slam at level 11 and then replace it with Raging blow down the road for another point. No they both buy 2/3rds of their core rotation by the second point.

This…

Also this…

I think personally you should stick to BM ideas. You have some good ones for them. I think personally you should leave SV alone lol. Every time you mention SV it amounts to telling them they are wrong for wanting something better for the spec they play and that SV does not need x,y,z.

I agree lol. They should have just made the BFA MB Changes and added WFB instead of all the traps and we would’ve been better off for it.

No. We desperately do. At least one more spender and some relational synergy between the core abilities(like every other dps spec). Then just fix the mastery lol. There genie those are my three wishes…

Thanks for being awesome!

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I know you want Lacerate. My top priority right now, though, is to focus on reducing the cost of our tree before adding new nodes.

That said, there’s no reason they can’t do both, and I do think reimplementing Lacerate as our Flayed Shot mechanic would be great, so back to it:

I would place a choice node somewhere in the middle of the tree:

Choice 1: Lacerate, no cooldown, costs 30 Focus – Causes the target to bleed for 18 seconds, each tick has X% chance to reset the cd on Kill Shot and make Kill Shot free and useable on any target regardless of current health. Kill Shot extends Mongoose Fury by 1.5 seconds.

Choice 2: Chakrams, 60 second cooldown, costs 15 Focus – Send two chakrams weaving towards your target hitting all enemies between you and your target. Causes each target hit to bleed for 9 seconds, each tick has X% chance to reset the cd on Kill Shot and make Kill Shot free and useable on any target regardless of current health. Kill Shot procs may stack twice. Kill Shot reduces the cd of Chakrams by 3 seconds.

I’m sure these have flaws, but they’re just rough ideas and importantly, they reintroduce the Flayed Shot mechanic that I’m surprised they took out of our initial trees – I think Lacerate is the more important of the two since our single target rotation needs another button way more than our aoe rotation, but Kill Shot has more interaction with our aoe rotation through Explosives Expert. Perhaps Lacerate is enough on its own in our aoe rotation, tuned to be best maintained on two or three targets, but I also was disappointed that they took normal Chakrams out of the tree…

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I have to agree. The changes are in a good direction. A couple of things noted:

  1. We are still spending too many points in the top of the tree. Having Crack Shot and Precise Shots as two-point nodes means we spend 6 points just to move to the third row. We end up spending up to 14 points at the top of the tree before moving on to the next tier (15 if you’re BM). Freeing up two or three points would go far in improving the flexibility of choice at the bottom of the tree.
  2. Dead eye does need to be adjacent to the other Kill Shot modifier nodes. I keep preaching that it also needs to be usable on targets with 30-35% health remaining. This would make Kill Shot execute similar to Warrior.
  3. Bullseye is gated behind Serpentstalker’s Trickery. This feels bad since we are already having Serpent Sting in the class tree and having no option to skip it for the buff in execute crit feels bad.
  4. Sharpshooter is gated under Volley. It may be necessary to add a path from True Shot. You could swap Dead Eye and Volley putting the Kill Shot nodes adjacent, move Serpentstalker’s Trickery to the space between the current Volley and Sharpshooter, add a line from True Shot to Sharpshooter allowing Serpentstalker’s to be skipped. This free’s up a node at the current Serpentstalker’s location. This could be used to buff Arcane Shot since there is nothing for it, and we have the buffs to Multi-Shot on the other side.

Hey Mist, good work.

I would REALLY appreciate it if you would do the following:

  1. Download “Talent Tree Manager” on Github. Many of us already have it.
    GitHub - TobiasM95/WoW-Talent-Tree-Manager: WoW Talent Tree Manager
  2. Import my Generic Hunter Tree
    https://pastebin.com/Spyhg1L4
  3. Import my Survival Tree
    https://pastebin.com/aGYprPXK

Please read the ‘notes’ section under the “Tree Information” for both trees.

The goal is to present tree and node ideas for the alpha trees. The alpha trees are significantly lacking in anything ‘fun’ and I think a plethora of cool ideas can be drawn from these trees. So take your time, enjoy building different builds, and pull some ideas from it.

I know this sounds like a lot, however, it’s a wonderful resource to use when dealing with these talent trees.

Finally, I give you the authorization to share both trees in the Alpha forums, as well as individual talents.

I meow want lasagna, thanks!

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awesome feedback 100% agreed. I also think we have too many talents focused on % crit and I feel like they are quite underwhelming and should be replaced with some cool abilities from the MM artifact weapon like Winburst and Cyclonic Burst

I think the first part of this do able. Many of us have been asking for this very thing. The second half I dont think will happen sadly. I dont see them extending Mongoose Fury ever.

Honestly replacing Barrage with Chakrams would be perfect. I like the added affect but i could see adding a talent that let Chakrams could spread SS like FoK spreads rogues poisons before adding a bleed to it.

I cannot agree with you more!

@Watermist

I’d just like to point out that Watermist has a job and a life in conjunction with a passion for hunters in WoW. I imagine signing up for the Community Council to offer feedback was done without knowing that hunters would have limited interaction on DF feedback, since many of us can not post in the Alpha forums and that is where most of the communication is occurring.

Watermist has become one of our unofficial spokespersons and has put a tremendous effort into taking the multitude of opinions and concerns and consolidating them in a logical and presentable way. Many hours of free time have put into all this research and organization, as far as I can tell. And I’m seeing very little of their own preferences in an attempt to represent us all.

It’s encouraging to see so many players with such passion presenting ideas and offering solutions and not just complaining. However, please bear in mind there is a limit to how much one person can do. For all I know, they are reading every link and evaluating every tree and all the new ideas and happily for every single poster….but if they can’t do all that, Watermist has done an amazing job.

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I admit, I missed it when I first read the post(s) as I’m not focusing on MM all that much. It’s a weird typo though…

HUNTER

  • Marksmanship

    • The talent locations of Black Arrow and Legacy of the Windrunners have been swapped.

Links:

(They’re probably talking about Wailing Arrow. But not sure how one goes to type down Black Arrow instead of that…)

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I noticed that immediately. Definitely… odd?

Just a couple quick notes, before I leave for work.

Remember that the icon for Wailing Arrow used on the trees is the Black Arrow icon. So I absolutely won’t be surprised if they got it mixed up due to the two abilities sharing the same icon.

And secondly, I really like seeing all the trees that different posters come up with on here! They’re very creative, and I’m just in awe.

But I can’t help but feel that if I share those fan-made trees in my posts, I would end up shooting myself (and us) in my feet. In the past, Blizzard — especially this current crop of devs — has always shown (however unintentionally) mild disdain for fan-made talent trees.

So what I’ve been doing so far, and I plan on keep doing, is look at the player-made trees, write down active abilities (either new or old) with strong Hunter-y themes, and share them. :slightly_smiling_face:

Maybe I’m being overly cautious, but I do feel like a shift has happened between Blizzard and the Hunter community, on both alpha and here. Over the past month, I can only recall two long-lasting arguments in here, and they weren’t even that long. The Hunter community is very focused on feedback, a lot more than I saw during the Legion/BFA/SL alpha and beta.

So yeah, I’m treading carefully here! I am definitely using the player-made trees as resources, but I’m not gonna link them in the alpha feedback. I just can’t shake the feeling that it would immediately turn off Blizzard’s attention…

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Yea, your right.

Blizz has this superiority complex when it comes to classes. They SAY they want feedback, but only in the context that it can be modified so they can fit it into their trees. I have seen in the past where devs would be quite frustrated, even angry at players who link trees and systems that would, by far, be better then what blizz has created. Of course, the trees are presented in a meaningful and helpful manner, for the goal of making the game better. However, blizz does not speak in the same language as players do.
Mist, you are correct. There is a past between hunters and the devs, and the primary cause for the animosity is the removal of ranged survival. hands down. When they removed it, it split the hunter playerbase and it also sparked substantial lashback at the devs. Ever since then there has often been undercurrents between us. Along with removing rsv, they completed dismantled the pet system, they have yet to provide ranged weapons with illusions that everyone else gets for their weapons, they have over time removed iconic spells from the hunter toolkit (lacerate anyone), which has also pissed people off. Lets not forget that blizz gets substantial backlash from the community nearly every time they release class sets bc the visuals are nearly all the same, and are ALWAYS a step or two, or ten, below that of the shaman’s steps.

Ill make a list and share it with you from my trees. However, i was pretty focused on not creating new active on-use spells bc we dont need anymore on-use spells. In fact, i would argue that the biggest empty spots in our trees are the dead “increases focus by x” spells. My trees heavily focus on correcting that huge issue. Ill add some in my list, although it does sort of piss me off that i cant share Terminator Kitteh because it involves multiple nodes, not just one.

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Did you see Terminator kitteh on my surv tree?

I think the second half is just to solve for the issue of never wanting to press Kill Shot during a Mongoose Fury window. If you don’t ever want to press it during that window, Lacerate and Kill Shot would just become two buttons that you press in between Mongoose Fury windows, and if you get a proc early in the window, it would feel pretty bad because you’re just sitting on it for 10+ seconds, and Lacerate is losing half of the functionality it has in my proposal.

All of this said, I like the recent idea on the Alpha feedback thread that calls for Nesingwary’s Trapping Apparatus to be replaced with the Flayed Shot mechanic for each spec and Razorpouch Fragments in the class tree. If this were to happen, what I think the single target rotation could use is some cd reduction on Flanking Strike in single target situation (i.e. not just from Carve/Butchery) such that with optimal play, Flanking Strike fits into each Mongoose Fury window, and again, I think we would need a talent on the single target side that makes Kill Shot do something special with Mongoose Fury, otherwise we’d be back in a similar situation where we end up holding the proc until after the Mongoose Fury window. Of course, that’s easier to do if it’s tied to Kill Command resets than a DoT naturally ticking away, but still would not feel great.

My main strategy at this point is to try to ask for what I want in the simplest implementation possible.

Goal: I do want another button or two to press in the single target rotation.

Simplest Implementation: *of course, I’m no computer programmer, so this is my layman’s opinion of “simple implementation”

  1. I think the best first step is implementing the Flayed Shot mechanic. It doesn’t necessarily add a new bind because it could be tied to Kill Command resets like the tree originally did, but it does add a new button to press – Kill Shot.
  2. I think that we then would need to tackle the issue of not wanting to press Kill Shot in a Mongoose Fury window. Here’s where my suggestion that Kill Shot increase the Mongoose Fury window comes in.
  3. If the reset is tied to Kill Command resets and not a new button like Lacerate, I again think that we could use another button to press in single target, and would like to see a cooldown reduction on Flanking Strike in the single target rotation to be used in every Mongoose Fury window with optimal play – and maybe even have the talent nodes that increase its damage have its damage increased by Mongoose Fury stacks instead.
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There is feedback, and then there is telling the devs straight up “your design sucks, throw it all out, use my design instead as a drop in replacement”.

We should be aiming for iterative feedback leading to an evolution of Hunter as it is on live and as we’ve seen from alpha releases this far, not a complete revolution that upends everything the devs have built.

Regardless of your opinions on the matter, regardless of how good your concept tree might be, the devs are not going to throw out their work wholesale and replace it with your ideas. Period.

Focus on the achievable. Don’t let perfect be the enemy of better.

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