Community Council discussion on Hunter design

[Allieddeath-blackrock]

@Bepples-barthilas

Constantly threatens to flag people and follows up on it

Calls people “lesser lifeforms”

Sounds about right.

If the shoe fits? It was a fairly non-specific statement.

@Bepples-barthilas

The builds sucked, period. You could get by in non-competitive situations because the average player especially in Classic is extremely bad and can’t even handle someone jumping in circles around them, but that doesn’t mean the builds were good. Without a significant gear and/or skill gap they would fall apart.

Firsthand experience? If not, sit down.

@Bepples-barthilas

The fact that Mongoose Bite required a dodge should tell you that it wasn’t intended as a primary offensive capability. It was a capability that gave Hunters some ability to respond to pressure when stuck in melee. You did not deliberately run into/stay in melee for Mongoose Bite, or even Raptor Strike for that matter.

That’s your own limited understanding of the ability. Survival was about turning defense into offense. You would know that already if you would internalize some of my earlier posts in this thread.

I explained everything here:

Community Council discussion on Hunter design

Mongoose Bite was the central icon of Survival in Classic.
In retail, Mongoose Bite is the central ability in Survival’s damage rotation.

@Bepples-barthilas

The fact that we’re still here talking about it means you haven’t swept it under the rug.

You’ve lost a considerable amount of influence as of late.
The tides have turned.

@Bepples-barthilas

Its ranged toolkit was more complete in both design and tuning.

Marksmanship was a powerful contributor to the class.

@Bepples-barthilas

Its melee toolkit was insufficient even when taking the melee damage talent (yes, singular).

Perfectly balanced for PvP.

@Bepples-barthilas

It had the best tools to slow/incapacitate enemies and escaping back to range.

One of its numerous, leverageable options.

@Bepples-barthilas

It had the agility scaling talent, and agility gave double scaling for ranged damage.

You again underestimate how powerful we were in melee range. If we had 2x scaling in MAP, it would be completely imbalanced from a design standpoint if we did equivalent sustained damage to dedicated melee classes, while Survival still had access to powerful instant-cast ranged tools.

We were fine in melee range with 1:1 AGI/MAP under Deterrence.

@Bepples-barthilas

Its end talent was a ranged CC.

Lacerate. The perfect utility tool provided by a PvP tree used to prevent a Rogue from vanishing.

I made a funny

@Bepples-barthilas

Every time Blizzard iterated on the spec they made it more ranged-centric.

Until they made it melee again. Each phase of Survival was legitimate for the respective time period. The RSV phase ended 8 years ago, let it go.

@Bepples-barthilas

Most of all, it was a Hunter and Hunters’ use of ranged weapons was baked into the class foundation. It’s not something you specced out of.

I mean, you couldn’t spec out of melee either.

@Bepples-barthilas

People disagreeing with you on a public forum is not harassment.

Only it wasn’t a mere disagreement.

What exactly does “Tar Trap-Flare interaction is brilliant” have to do with the “SV was ranged even in classic” line you attempted to impose on me?

How is Survival after today's (1/10/22) hotfix buffs?

Yes, I endorse this type of creative skill synergy. Vanilla Survival Hunter.

@Bepples-barthilas

Notice how at no point do you actually address the substance; you have a standard for Hunters that says any ranged attack is effectively Marksmanship’s domain, yet you don’t apply the same standard to any other class in the game.

What is this ‘substance’ you make reference to? False equivalency.

@Bepples-barthilas

Nope SV was ranged from the start. It got its own unique ranged abilities later on but it was still ranged from day 1. It’s not something you specced out of.

Marksmanship provided ranged dps.
Survival provided melee dps.
Beast Mastery provided pet dps.

Contest it with actual logic or sit down.

@Bepples-barthilas

So was Multi-Shot but you still labelled that as an MM thing.

Not sure what you’re missing here. False equivalency.

@Bepples-barthilas

The real squandered effort here is melee SV. Almost 7 years in and look at how much of a dumpster fire it still is. If Blizzard doubles down on melee SV they can accept melee SV always being an embarrassing failure of class design.

You’re free to have an opinion.

@Bepples-barthilas

BM does not struggle to carve out it’s own identity. SV does. You’re just deflecting here.

Once again you’re quadrupling down on “every single ranged weapon ability is necessarily Marksmanship”.

Barbed Shot is not Marksmanship because ranged weapons aren’t the sole domain of Marksmanship. MM focuses on a specific mode of ranged weaponry i.e. sniping and expert sharpshooting. Barbed Shot is not necessarily a BM, MM, or SV ability, but it fits BM well because the idea is it causes the target to bleed which sends the pet into a frenzy. It’s actually a great thematic fit for BM.

Didn’t I disclaim: “In my opinion”? I’m not sure why you’re so upset–why does my opinion wound you so?

The statement made about [Barbed Shot] was that I felt it was basically a generic feat of skill, and that it doesn’t scream BM like [Stomp] does.

[Cobra Shot] does fit the theme. I think it’s a good idea, but it feels crammed into the ranged weapon aesthetic. BM is still shackled to MM a bit as a result, which I think is holding BM back from its full potential.

Ideally, BM would dispense with hard weapon requirements within its spec tree entirely. At this point in the game, it makes no difference if BM had an Animation-Ranged/Melee Weapon for focus-spenders, Dual Throwing Axes like Rexxar in HotS, etc.

You shouldn’t get all bent out of shape over an opinion.

The reason you’re like this is because of your controlling nature which is a severe social maladjustment. Live and let live or get shouted down.

@Bepples-barthilas

Marksmanship does not “corner the ranged weapon fantasy” any more than Fury corners the melee weapon fantasy. Ludicrous statement.

Oh, then where’s your 2nd seperate class that uses Ranged Weaponry?

@Bepples-barthilas

I played back then and unlike you I can verify it.

You were an admitted BM Hunter at the time. You would only have a secondhand perspective on what SV gameplay was like.

@Bepples-barthilas

You’re also forgetting Survival got its own unique ranged ability Wyvern Sting during Vanilla. Patch 1.7 (September 2005) to be exact.

The original SV Tree had no ranged abilities.
While Wyvern Sting was a welcome addition to the game, your notion of a ‘Ranged Survial’ cannot be proven by any logical means.

@Bepples-barthilas

No one saw SV as a spec that didn’t use a ranged weapon with ranged attacks (yes even when Lacerate was the end ability). Arguments that it was melee now are the product of revisionist history.

Survival was a melee archetype, BM was a pet archetype, and MM was a ranged archetype and they shared abilities to create an overarching fantasy.
In practice, the Classic Hunter was one of the first true physical damage hybrids.

95%+ Ranged DPS contribution came from Marksmanship
100% Melee DPS contribution came from Survival
100% Pet DPS contribution came from Beast Mastery

The original SV Tree had no ranged abilities and there was no baseline ranged abilities provided to the Hunter Superstructure by Survival.

Survival’s intra-specialization damage profile consisted of 90%+ melee dps with some added contribution to that figure from Immolation or Explosive Trap.

Prove otherwise.