Classic Raiding Difficulty

(Morehwine) #222

Your wording here-- “permit” rather than “designed”-- ignores the fact that they gave the base UI a core functionality and then also an open API which allowed for a pretty vast array of customization. Just that one fact was a dangling invitation for add-on authors to step-in and offer their services.

Sure, add-ons were optional. They’re still optional today. It’s absolutely ridiculous to try and claim that anyone playing the game with add-ons isn’t playing the game as designed, though. If Blizzard had not designed the game to be played with add-ons, it would not have launched with its open API.

(Williams) #223

Something that’s often totally overlooked with regard to Vanilla raiding. (Specifically pre-naxx)

Large scale logistics
Resource management
Consumable management
Threat management DPS
Threat management Tank swap
Threat management add-tank
Threat management Healer
No joke “use a bandage”

And I’m certain that I’m missing something, maybe several.

I guess the thing I’m attempting to say is Blizzard moved the challenge of raiding from playing your character and the logistics of your character into two very focused things, your rotation and the boss mechanics.

That’s literally all that’s left.

Someone once said they turned the modern game into dance-dance-revolution. I fully agree with that.


Not a design flaw…

You know it’s like say I suck at this and cannot figure it out… so, it a design flaw…

By your logic everything is a design flaw. :disappointed:


Challenge is everyone executing everything currently, the correct gear, flask, bandage, and threat.

Out 40 ppl always have a few mess ups.

You have mess ups with 20m mythic run constantly. Like at least 5 ppl out of 20 mess up. In a 40man it will be 10.

:thinking::pensive: going some wipes cause of the select few.

(Kelzar) #226

Except on progression for m20 1 missed mechanic is often death for the player, 1 dead player means you are short of hitting the dps/hps breakpoints you need to finish the fight in time.

Where as in vanilla you had fights like razorgore where if 20 out of 40 were alive by phase 2 it was prob a kill.

(Galdor) #227

Yeah, people keep talking about the DPS requirements in Vanilla being so lax that you could bring a raid full of Ret Pallies and still kill the bosses.

Which means you can have a sizeable part of a more balanced raid dead early on in the fight and still kill the boss.

(Kolben) #228

Game knowledge… again.

Ret Paladins in Vanilla do good damage, they just don’t do as much as a properly geared Combat Rogue or Fury Warrior.

Ret Paladins also bring the ability to off heal with FoL, buff, blessings, auras and a lot of the Paladin toolkit.

You would be better off bringing a bunch of Ret Paladins than a bunch of Arms Warriors and Sub Rogues.

My prediction is that when classic gets rolling people will realize how little they actually understand memes like this in the first place.

(Araska) #229

Not in Naxxramas or most of AQ40, and definitely not if they died early on unless the raid heavily outgears that content.


Not really sure why people get so defensive about the difficulty of vanilla raids. Tedious does not mean difficult. If you did actually raid back then, and have raided in any time since that period, you truly cannot have that same mindset. If you do have that same mindset, then I don’t know how your skill in the game hasn’t improved in over a decade. I’m not trying to sound like an elitist, because I am looking forward to classic (mainly world pvp), but it really isn’t difficult to look at some of the outside factors as to why it took longer.

It took far longer to gear people because bosses dropped what, 2-3 pieces for 40 man raids? What is difficult about having to farm the same raid over and over to gear everyone to move on? Not to mention the ridiculous amount of time it took to pass out gear and having DKP (at least my guild took forever).

People underestimate the amount of resources and logistical things we have now that take care of some of the time consuming problems vanilla had (bc as well). No mass rez, respawning trash, cooldowns not resetting when you end a boss encounter (hi 30 minute shield wall cd), I’m sure there’s a lot more but that’s all that comes to mind right now.

Again, I’m not trying to sound like an elitist, but if you didn’t play classic and are excited for some kind of challenging new raid environment, you need to manage your expectations. If you enjoy things like not being able to do a boss because you didn’t have 8 tanks, or reclearing trash because it respawned after wiping for a while, you’re gonna love it.

(Kelzar) #231

Exactly this, no one is saying raids in Classic are bad. What we are saying is objectively if you compare modern raids to classic its just not a comparison of difficulty.

But then again these people cant step back and analyze things properly, so I dont expect anything to change till Classic is out and you see numerous guilds clear every raid the same day its released(with the exception of p1 content cause leveling). But then again I bet most of them wont even admit it then, cause humans are remarkably bad about admitting when we are wrong.

This is why I wanted all the content open from the start so we could see how fast people could push through content without having time to farm current phase before next one comes out.


I’m very curious to see if Method or any other high end guild plans on playing classic. I wonder how many split runs will be done.

(Williams) #233

could not have said it better. IMO even the private server guys are behind the curve a bit too. I feel they’re far and few that actually innovate and the majority just copy / paste. And by Majority I mean 99.999%

(Mistwynd) #234

Not really.

In Vanilla raids when someone messed up usually they just killed themselves. With a few exceptions like the main tank.

The first raid encounter I ever experienced where a mistake by anyone in the raid causes multiple fatalities and the entire raid to wipe was not in Vanilla.

Rather it was Archimonde in Battle for Mount Hyjal Raid in Burning Crusade. That fight had a mechanic where everyone got flame under their feet and had to run out. The problem is it was very easy to accidentally box yourself and several teammates in with your flame. And since everyone had the flame mechanic chances of someone messing up and causing a wipe were very high.

This kind of mechanic where one mistake by anybody in the raid causes an automatic wipe didn’t exist back in Vanilla. But it is common in mythic difficulty raid encounters today.

(Araska) #235

Once again, your’e entirely ignorant.


It’s largely based on attendance. Certain guilds would make their dkp cap really high and some guilds would even burn dkp if you didn’t show. To give some perspective into that world.


I am talk upper AQ40 bosses and naxx 40 a few mess ups equals death.

I seen 5 ppl mess up constantly in mythic raids and still down bosses. All you see is I got parse blah blah tunnel vision. Ahah
Ape damage going out to other ppl. Dang that was hard. Stare at said ppl like wtf.

Same in vanilla… hey guys dps dps pulls threat wipes Group. You get the ppl that just are very only see the short end not overall picture. Just wait will we see a lot of QQ and I hope pre-nerf raids not half @$$ nerfed raids.

C-thun was never defeated pre-nerf.

(Cilivia) #238

For the sake of argument, here’s Onyxia strat explained

I still think this is less difficult than Normal Grong, provided raid is fully RF geared

(Kolben) #239

(Danathor) #240

My vanilla guild did it the hard way… we were mostly a pvp guild that did some pve. So, we raided in pvp specs… but oh, man was it hella fun.

When we started to take it seriously we made it to 3rd best raiding guild on the alliance side. Good enough for us…

(Gus) #241

If this happens, it’s because it’s been done before. Many times. These same people who have already cleared this content will be doing it again.

How many days would it take Method to kill Mythic Jaina if Blizz re-released that raid content today? Seriously… answer that question.

It took them 7 days to clear Jaina when it was first released. Do you think they would trim this time line considering they’ve already done it?

I do.

How about after 14 years of clearing Jaina over and over again. Think they could clear it day one on a fresh content release?

So many people are conveniently defining the word “difficulty” to fit their narrative.

It’s not about how long it will take the 1% who’s already cleared it before to clear it again.

It’s about how long it will take you to do it it the 1st time without your hand being held.