Class Set Feedback: Warrior

In this thread, we’re gathering focused feedback on the Warrior class set, coming in Eternity’s End.

Please note that initially in the PTR, class sets are a work in progress and will undergo substantial design changes in the near future. We’ll let you know the details of those changes as they are developed, both here in this thread and in our Development Notes thread.

Thank you for testing Eternity’s End with us!

I haven’t had the chance to test the sets on the ptr yet, as I’m writing this waiting for the servers to come up, but preliminary thoughts are fury’s set bonus is awesome and if the free Recklessness from the 2-piece worked with Reckless Abandon (even if it didn’t grant the 50 rage on proc) I think we could see 2 / 3 covenants with their own playstyles be viable.

For Arms, the set bonus seems like it should be strong on paper, but from personal experience I find myself running out of rage even with an Enhancement Shaman in the group and charge weaving near the end of my Colossus Smash window, exacerbated much more if I’m not playing Night Fae or Avatar, so I’m wondering how effective in practice the extension on colossus smash will be, especially if talents were swapped to Anger Management and In for the Kill, perhaps. I do think Arms struggles a little in PvE due to relative strength of talents and legendaries. Enduring Blow and Elysian Might, as well as the rage from Avatar in burst windows and the raw strength of Dreadnaught. I do think if the tier set gave some kind of rage generation, even if it were something like “Execute refunds 30% of rage spent if it doesn’t kill the target” instead of the baseline 15%, we would have the rage economy to branch out into some other talents and legendaries and really shake things up.

4 Likes

Why is the warrior set helm not filled in with black like the concept art and the paladin set? It looks absolutely goofy the way that it is now. Just filling it in would improve it a lot. Also what even are those shoulders? Bricks?

3 Likes

I’m curious as to how impactful you guys want the set bonuses to be on how the class is played. In the current state, the Arms warrior bonuses will be equipped and forgotten about because they are essentially passive bonuses that you will get without altering anything about how you play.

Personally, I like seeing things that shake up how a spec deals its damage, and these set bonuses won’t deliver on that.

1 Like

I think this my biggest qualm and concern with the set bonus being focused around Rage generation and the ability to spend it.

Arms warrior currently synergizes the best with Windfury Totem out of any other classes or specs. The set bonus being based around rage spending, will only further emphasize this. It will punish players that may not have a Shaman willing to play enhancement (Or a Shaman at all). Likewise guilds that rely heavily upon Arms Warriors, may pressure Shaman players to play Enhancement.

In addition this bonus is kind of pretty passive. It doesn’t change the rotation very much besides maybe pooling rage a few seconds before CS windows.

3 Likes

Please rework the Arms set. As of current sims it is a 5% increase to wear the entire set, while other classes/specs are seeing 10-12% increases.

Moreover, the set has no bearing on gameplay at all. You use CS, you dump rage, you use CS, you dump rage. This is both a standard rotation, and the tier set bonus. On AoE the set seems lackluster even in a raid scenario. Take Soulrender, you could CS on pull then CS the adds and have a fatter burst through “ramping” with rage spending, however other specs will be juiced through their own tier sets, making your burst inconsequential in comparison. With a cap on how much % you can amplify your CS window the tier set looks like it could not exist and you would notice no difference.

Fury also has the same gameplay rotation problem as Arms, tier sets were labelled as functionally changing rotations, however for both specs they do nothing if not reinforce current gameplay rotations. Fury wants to press Raging Blow as much as possible already in SoD, as well as in CN. And the chance to proc Reck is just a rehash of an azerite trait akin to Arms.

I feel both tier sets are incredibly underwhelming, with Fury being “ok” because numerically it outputs far more damage than Arms’ tier set could hope for. Please do a once-over on Arms, and where you see Arms being in 9.2, as the current tier set for it feels like the Alpha version of a tier bonus, and not a finished product.

4 Likes

I don’t think the tier sets should be fundamentally changing which buttons we press, like making Bloodthirst do more damage than Raging Blow for example, but the expressed goal is always to shake up talents / legendaries / covenants, refreshing the playstyle. I agree that I believe that the Arms tier set should be changed, but I’m not the sole arbiter of Arms. I think giving a straight numbers buff like how I believe the current tier set will play out will only entrench Enduring Blow / Elysian Might as the only viable option over Enduring Blow / Nature’s Fury by about 400 dps, and leaving Necrolord and Venthyr Arms much further behind, but I can’t say for sure because the servers aren’t up to test it yet. Tier sets should generally give, if memory serves, about 6-8% single target, but numbers can be changed rather easily. I believe early on in the development process it’s more important to make sure that the sets mechanically hit the mark rather than numerically, and on that I think we’re agreed.

Theoretically, pooling rage before CS windows should be something we do now, but it’s heavily de-incentivized by Enduring Blow. I think the goal with the tier set was to bring that style of preparing for burst windows back by making sure you’re amping your CS and even saving CS for a couple of seconds if you need to, before stacking all of your cooldowns and munching whatever you’re hitting, which would be awesome and very in line with the Arms fantasy. I agree with the point that Arms is a little too reliant on something like Windfury Totem to be not only competitive in DPS with other specializations, but there is a noticeable lack of rage on the warrior’s end if the totem is missing, which is why I pointed out that a rage-generating tier set would be awesome, but I understand it’s going to be very hard to build a tier set that works in raid (where the best effect would be rage generation), mythic+ (where the best effect would be cooldown reduction), and PvP (no clue there, am noob) and having a tier set to amp CS windows at least hits the mark relatively well in both raid and M+. I think I would just like the devs to consider the extension on CS and maybe move the power away from lengthening the window to making the window even better, like abilities refund a small percentage of rage during CS (only the button press of CS, so that Enduring Blow wouldn’t be op, and refund rage rather than cost reduction so that we still get Tactician resets).

A better 2pc for protection.
Deep wounds reduces damage taken by 3%.

A better 4pc for protection.
Revenge has a 15% chance to trigger an additional Revenge.
Revenge grants you an absorb shield for 75% of all damage it deals.

2 Likes

One thing I’m torn about proposing rage generation is that we have 2 covenants that would benefit over such set bonuses over the other 2. Night Fae and Kyrian don’t suffer from Rage Starvation as much as Necrolords and Venthyr Arms warriors.

I can see the direction that they took with Arms with what they have show case for the spec. Until testing with the Enduring Blow Legendary and the set we can only come up with ideas. We need a set that can benefit all 4 covenants without nerfing some to make the others feel more useful.

1 Like

I’m not sure I agree with the prot warrior rework here. Deep wounds reducing damage seems relatively boring and doesn’t give any chance to shake up how prot warrior plays while also giving a defensive / offensive bonus, which is the usual stated goal of tier sets. Revenge having a 15% chance to revenge again is already a legendary (Seismic Reverberations) and granting an absorb shield for 75% damage just makes them completely immortal in m+, removes healers from the equation completely, and is stealing an effect from Ursoc’s Fury Remembered. I think the prot warrior set is super cool as it is, and having a defensive portion to Avatar is dope. The set being based on spending rage also works as both an offensive and defensive component because both are based on the rage economy. I think prot’s problems more likely lie in the fact that a prot warrior during periods of very high, especially magic, damage have to choose between spending rage on ignore pain and shield block. Pressing ignore pain is almost mandatory against magic damage, which is fine, but you’re sacrificing uptime on shield block which is having to choose between your active and passive mitigations, a.k.a. be tanky now or be tanky later. Reprisal does a fantastic job for a legendary to answer this dilemma by giving shield block to be tanky later and free rage to be tanky now, but I think most people would prefer the solution be baseline to prot’s kit rather than in borrowed power. But if this is the intended design from Blizzard and is supposed to be one of prot’s inherent weaknesses, then ignore me :slight_smile:

Very true, although I would add that getting the Glory legendary in addition to another one for Arms should help their rage economy by lengthening the necro banner to receive more rage from it. The rage economy is always going to be a tricky subject and it’s now apparent to me how difficult it must be to design tier sets with these problems in mind. I proposed execute refunding rage as a tier set because execute is where Arms tends to struggle the most with Rage, and 3 covenants have an ability that gives at least some rage, while Venthyr doesn’t outside of soulbinds.

Another approach to it could be to buff one of the other legendaries outside of Enduring Blow, like changing Battlelord to be “Overpower has a 50% chance to reset the cooldown of Mortal Strike and give you 20 rage.” or maybe allowing Venthyr’s Sinful Surge legendary to extend Recklessness, Avatar, AND Colossus Smash if you have more than one of them activated (by Signet of Tormented Kings, for example), that way the covenants start on a more even playing field so designing a tier set that gives all 4 of them equal power instead of trying to cater the tier set to the 2/3 less played covenants would be a lot easier. Just an idea, not sure how that would work in practice.

Prot War (2 pc): It’s fine but IP is already a bad button to press most of the time. Would like it to also remove the 50% DR and make it an actual shield. But increasing Prot Dmg is fine, we are still weak against magic and that is where tweaking the IP Element is useful.
Prot War (4 pc): It’s fine, no issues, see how it scales.

Fury War (2 pc): This is a nice change. This should remove WW from our ST rotation, WW feels awful to use ST.
Fury War (4 pc): Also a nice change, will probably make RB>BT and a ton of RB Spam, with the 2 pc adding dmg to it, Fury should feel nice

Arms War (2 pc): Feels under tuned, 5-6 seconds would be better
Arms War (4 pc): If you don’t tweak the 2 pc, I would redesign this. Make every 75 rage spent reduce the CD by 2-3 seconds, would feel better IMO.

1 Like

I can dig the Arms set piece ideas you have here, but spending rage to reduce Colossus Smash cooldown is already a talent. It would be wild if we could stack those, but the uptime on Colossus Smash especially with something like Sinful Surge would get dangerously close to 100%.

The set may as well read:-
2pc
Spend 240 rage (thats alot of rage meaning the best way to stack empowers means not using revenge or shield block, but spamming any excess rage into either ignore pain or execute) to empower your next ss/tc/ip (what 200% more effective for ss/tc and 50% more effective for ip is yet to be tested). If more effective means generates more rage, deals more damage, increases the slow or allows ignore pain to ignore 50% more (100% absorb) then yes this bonus looks very cool. If it means just a damage increase to ss/tc or allowing ip to absorb 50% more (its still capped at 1.3 thre base amount total) its extremly lackluster and wont change a single thing in rotation.
4pc
Press avatar for a 10% dr (boring could use some tuning but adds a defensive element to avatar - great) and get a free empowerment.

Prot warriors biggest issue is having to choose between mitigation and damage via choosing how to spend rage - we cant do both - most other tanks can. Yes mimicing ursocs effect would allow us to do both via having revenge also cast an absorb.

I was meming at the time but in all seriousness a better prot bonus could be avail.

Have something that procs victory rush without having to talent for it
Have something that adds a 3rd charge of shield block or allows it to reset and be free
Have shield block have a chance to give you a full ignore pain
Stealing from legion - have a bonus that allows beserker rage to generate double rage instead of just being a fear/incap break
Alowing shield slam to be cleaved (similar to fury ww cleave to 5 targets) after a tc
Allow a sudden death proc type thing for prot
Allow execute to give back rage as prot

Obvioulsy none of what i said matters until ptr is up and all can be tested.

1 Like

Arms set needs to be completely different. Stop doing sets with colossus smash, it’s a boring ability.

Maybe something like slam sends out Dreadnaughts and Dreadnaught hits reduce CD of Avatar by x seconds. Something that’s actually interactive.

1 Like

240 Rage is 8 GCDs for Revenge / 8 shield blocks vs 6 Ignore Pains or full Executes (not counting the 20% refund), it doesnt seem like a huge difference to me, 6 vs 8, to give a large incentive to not use shield block or revenge. I would agree that the ptr testing will tell us what “more effective” means and how big of an incentive it will be, but I think spamming revenge in AoE will still be more effective than spamming IP just to dump rage for the tier set.

Depending on how Blood DK’s set interacts in AoE especially with Death’s Due, if Guardian’s set is 46% attack power total or to everything every 1 sec in Incarn, and if Prot Paladin’s set bonus gives holy power / what the internal cooldown is on it, I would agree that Prot Warrior’s set needs to be a little stronger in AoE to compete with the huge damage that the other tanks are getting in AoE. As far as most tanks being able to choose between mitigation and damage, that’s a reasonable point, but I think it’s part of the decision making on what to spend rage on. I would like Blizzard to take a look at how prot warrior has to choose between active mitigation like shield block which is necessary to survive, revenge spam for damage, and using Ignore Pain to help with magic damage / bleeds. I don’t think any tank has to choose between 2 forms of active mitigation and damage, kind of like how old Guardian Druid used to work.

I don’t like to talk about problems without offering solutions, and I actually really like your suggestions for free victory rushes (Impending Victory baseline?) and for sudden death to be a thing for prot, but some other cool suggestions to theorycraft on might be something like:

  1. Shield Block has a X% chance to grant the warrior spell reflection
  2. Shockwave gives you X% damage reduction from and X% more damage dealt to targets stunned by it
  3. Reflecting a spell with Spell Reflection no longer consumes the damage reduction
  4. I really like the 4pc in its current form, but maybe add Avatar cleanses bleeds as well as roots on use?
  5. These tier sets have had a lot of optional talents in them, which I think it awesome, so maybe something like Shield Slam has a 10% chance to Dragon Roar your target?

I do really like most of the tier sets and Blizzard has done a good job so far. I love that they’re taking an active role in listening to feedback. Keep it up Blizzard! <3

1 Like

Some notes on the Arms Warrior set bonus:

  1. I am reaching 5 stacks of the buff in about 35 seconds without using my Necrolord Banner (No windfury, 18% haste)
  2. The 3 second duration increase DOESN’T apply to Enduring Blow procs
  3. The 2% increased effectiveness stacking buff is consumed and DOES apply to Enduring Blow procs if the CS debuff is not present on the target
  4. The 2% increased effectiveness increases the damage done by Colossus Smash/Warbreaker while also adding a flat 2% increase to the damage modifier on the debuff

At the moment, I can cast a 5 stack Warbreaker, with the debuff at a 40% damage increase to that target. Any Enduring Blow procs with that debuff present extent the 40% increase, and do not consume any stacks I have generated during that debuff window.

Additionally, Warbreaker casts are extending the duration of Enduring Blow procs and do not overwrite the debuff percentage.

4 Likes

I wasn’t paying attention to stacks but more to the duration of the debuff on the targets and this is my first impressions with the Arms set pieces. There are moments that I can reach almost 20 second durations on the targets, however in a setting where things die quickly (world content and Mythic+ mostly where my concerns are) that the duration we gain will sometimes be wasted on quick engagements. When it comes to a boss fight, this might not be a big issue.

As for enduring blow legendary this is where I saw it very tricky while doing content in the new zone. Sometimes I felt I was getting durations only after I hit war breakers on a different target long after my original targets were killed and I get a legendary proc. I did see a few times that Enduring blow was extending the duration when It proced when war breaker was being used. Again this got me confused on the whole reason for the set pieces. This strange RNG either needs to be fixed or the bonuses need to be redone.

For the fury set, it seemed as though the 4 piece set would extend Recklessness if you previously casted it, as is expected, but some notes with the talent Reckless Abandon:

  1. When the tier set procs, I’m getting the 50 fury from Reckless Abandon, but do not get the swap from Raging Blow → Crushing Blow or Bloodthirst → Bloodbath
  2. When Recklessness is cast meaning the cooldown itself, everything works up until what I would assume is the point where the duration of the initial cast + the extension of Sinful Surge would have ran out (leaving only the duration granted by the tier set) and Crushing Blow and Bloodbath revert back to their original spells. It is very weird to have those 2 spells revert back with about 20~ seconds of recklessness remaining, but if it’s intended then it would make sense.