Class Set Feedback: Rogue

I want to echo what forever has said (he’s the true expert here though) and add a few more thoughts;

I’ve looked at a few other set sims and our other spec sims for Rogues. And while some are still clearly over tuned, I’m assuming the power budget they want for these sets is around 15%. (Maybe I’m off though, as some sets are sitting above 20%, including the other rogue sets, which are just slightly over tuned I’d say, but not by much. See below for why…)

We are going to be heading into next raid doing considerably less damage (most specs will though honestly, but Sin/Outlaw will be hit very hard) due to the heavy borrowed power of the Frost set for Sin/Outlaw and blood for Sub. And both Sin and Outlaw didn’t really come into their own until the Frost set became “abused” and we started to REALLY stack crit. I’m not saying that wasn’t an interesting min/max dynamic, and I enjoyed the power spike from getting the frost set and getting to high crit values, but the set itself is what is carrying our damage, not our base kits/tuning right now. I know for a lot of specs that is the case, so I won’t comment on if Rogues might need some base tuning, but I can almost bet they will just at looking at a few other classes and what their dom sets offer damage wise vs. ours.

(Once again, most seem to be in the 12-15% range, but Outlaw and Sin both are ABOVE that 15%, which leads me to believe our kits are somewhat still under tuned overall, and the Dom sets are carrying us, along with the sylv dagger/PS weapon adding another good 2-4% depending on spec)

If the sims are even ballpark accurate, you can assume that the Outlaw set is still UNDER tuned then, even compared to some other class sets. If they want the power budget of most sets to sit around that 15% mark, outlaw still needs some love.

I’m assuming the proc rate of the 2pc needs to be buffed a tad, maybe 30-40%, and the 4pc honestly still needs something. A 4% dmg increase for a 4pc doesn’t seem to feel all that great. I’m not saying it needs to be huge, I think a split between the 2pc and 4pc is generally better feeling than the 2pc being small and the 4pc being the one everyone needs to feel like their class is viable.

However, what’s frustrating from watching Outlaw and it being one of my favorite specs, is it never seems to get the attention to detail as other specs. It being an RNG spec also makes it feel like you as designers aren’t really sure what to do with it, as a small % increase here or there will make the outlier’s seem too high on the delta, but the majority of the time playing it feels frustrating.

This set is a great opportunity to give the spec some much needed Agency on the RNG, and give it a feel good moment and the “I did that” damage feeling when you do it right. I like the idea of the BtE 4pc, but it needs to feel GOOD lining up that damage sequence you mentioned with Greenskins, and it should be REWARDED with doing good damage. Right now, celerity with it’s boring 8% damage buff tied to AR, is still better than it, all while pressing the same buttons.

tl;dr - Frost set is carrying Outlaw/Sin. Both specs might need some base tuning. Sin/sub set might be slightly over tuned but might be needed to keep it competitive. Outlaw set in general is still under tuned (by a decent amount). 4pc needs to feel like a great damage sequence moment that’s rewarding to curb the frustrations of some of the RNG gods of outlaw.

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False,

Poxstorm is weaker than veinripper unless you cant hit from the back. Which is literally no boss fight in the game currently.

yes, me and the fine gentle men of this forum already settled this and agreed that arguing about weapons isnt productive for anyone.

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In M+, “behind the back” does not apply.
Veinripper is superior to Pox by quite a large margin in both M+ & raiding.

Anyway, RNG on top of RNG just horrible.
OL is by far my most favorite spec. But I simply cannot continue being main OL due to the fact OL kinda feels a little gutted & handicapped comparing to other specs.

Give my Gauge to all other specs, and give me uncapped aoe.

And, for the love of god, fix Blunder BF bug

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The 4 set is bugged and the Between the Eyes that fires off with the 4 set does the damage and applies the debuff of whatever your Pistol Shot puts your CP at. For example if you have 0 CP and Pistol Shot to 1 CP, it will ALWAYS fire off a BTE that applies the debuff of one used at 1CP. This is 100% reproducible as it happens every single time. I have no idea how to combat log a training dummy but you can try it for yourself.

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this, big thanks for catching this early :slight_smile:

I main outlaw and started dabbling into sub recently in retail. I tried both sets on PTR and wow, the sub 2/4p feels so good as it sped up the spec nicely, hope nothing happens to this bonus.

As for outlaw, i like the current iteration, not much complains but vs sub, the 2/4p bonuses pales slightly in comparision. Not too sure on my my suggestion will work out, but could we take this opportunity to experiment on increasing the proc rate of MG, say like every bullet increases the chance of MG to proc by 2-3% in addition to the current ability? so at 5 bullets its a 10% extra chance (as the 6th will be the BTE buff) which is a total of 40% to 45% to proc MG and speeds up the spec alittle more by possibly gaining more energy and combo points via 2p.

Yo, you guys forgetting about us? These don’t seem to be in :[

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HUH, outlaw hasnt been changed WYM us

give it a rest dude

Just posting here in case it helps with logistics as opposed to sticking to the rogue discord. As you already know, this is very strong. While I would certainly love to keep it how it is, I as well as most all the other sin rogues (with a conscience) are expecting this to be nerfed.

It’s hard to get a super good feel on how this is going to pan out without being able to test double legendaries (unless double legendaries are not something that are going to be taken into consideration for mythic testing which would be a grand mistake imo). That being said our 4p bonus is now on a moving scale based on our new 2p percentage, this is much better than the previous iteration however my concern is that the 4p’s current design in and of itself still doesn’t really check all the boxes in a fulfilling way to me:
Is it fun? Sure, swimming in energy during cds isn’t NOT fun.
Does it change gameplay? A little bit, yeah since we focus on reapplying dots in vendetta instead of spamming envenom.

But, while it does give us some new toys to play with (duskwalker’s patch), it also makes managing energy borderline obnoxious during cds (since we can’t seem to spend it fast enough) as well as punishing players who aren’t able to consistently snapshot their bleeds at the end of vendetta (which is a large contributor to how strong the tier set as a whole is currently).

I am completely aware that I may be in the smaller camp with this take, and that’s ok. I think a lot of people think that with the new 2p changes the tier set functions, and that’s all they want. Which is great and I’d be fine with it if that’s all that comes of this. I just think it can still be better. Maybe there’s some unexpected tuning coming our way (cough deathspike cough toxic onslaught cough sepsis stealth ability cough) that could open up more doors to make the tier set feel more impactful. But while it’s a great start, in my opinion this is where the original bonus should’ve been from the day 1 leaks and I just think it could still be improved on to be more satisfying.

I just wanted to get my updated thoughts out there, and as usual they are many so I appreciate your time. <3

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Hey folks! Now that the latest PTR build is out, wanted to give some updates on the future of Rogue’s sets + tuning, by spec.

As a general disclaimer, tuning for Tier Sets as a feature is happening asynchronously, so while it may feel to you that some sets are being buffed/nerfed unjustly, our intention is to hit the same target across the board - while there will naturally be variance, this means that comparing future plans detailed in this post to classes that have yet to receive tuning or more recently received an update to their functionality isn’t super productive (especially when I just gave rogues a 2-piece that outdamaged entire sets on accident, that’s just the magic of PTR babey)

  • Assassination

Last week the 2-piece shipped with higher numbers than intended, as the proposed 100% from a month ago, it turns out, was pretty strong. Even with the recent update the 40%, the whole set in aggregate is perhaps slightly ahead of where it should be, but decently close so far. Unlikely to receive any major changes beyond squashing bugs that come up and finalizing numbers to keep the two in-line so far, after the multi-dot/cleave element of the 2-piece & the move to an overall damage amp seems to be working out well so far.

  • Outlaw

Power-level wise, this one’s just shy of our target but on the weaker side of things overall. A lot of the new 4-piece’s power is intentionally baked into how an extra 6-point finisher affects the rest of the kit (via Restless Blades and other passives), but it’s looking like there’s room to amp the actual damage of the BTE proc somewhat in a way that won’t send those passives out of control & give it more impact. Overall though, the rework seems to feel a lot smoother and less ear-flicky than before, and is actually pretty close power-level wise. Still looking into reports of bugged or unintended interactions with BTE, Blade Flurry, and certain covenant abilities + the gun legendaries to help it feel like a complete package.

  • Subtlety

Lastly, we get to Subtlety. Astute testers may notice that not much has changed since our previous post - both in terms of the set’s power level and the bugged interactions surrounding Shadowstrike working like a real cast. Sadly, we ended up finding that those bugs were trickier to solve than we’d originally hoped & required a bit of new tech so that stuff like Akaari’s Soul Fragment wouldn’t proc infinitely off itself (which Sub players will now dream about). In any case, these are still coming, but unfortunately will be a little slower in getting to you than intended. In any event, we’re looking to do initial tuning on this bonus sooner than later so players can get an idea of where it might end-up balance-wise.

Overall, a pretty light update! It’s worth noting that once we get into the tuning phase, it’s unlikely you’ll see more of these for Rogues as you’ll just be seeing numbers go up or down, but we’ll try to keep you in the loop as to why and what our goals are as we get closer to 9.2’s release. That said, we appreciate your continued testing and feedback, and hope y’all have a great week.

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Appreciate the update, would love to hear if deathspike bugs are being addressed. If not necro rogue will be 100% dead in 9.2

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I’m assuming that any attention to deathspike/sepsis etc would be considered “bug fixes”? I think what scari is saying with this post is they are hammering out tier design first which is mostly done then moving to tuning / bug fixes.

I love these kinds of posts. I think Blizzard needs to go through all 36 specs and do a post like this:

I think / would want a post, Q&A or something else with the devs’ design goals and philosophies regarding every spec and what their intentions are, both as a whole and regards to raiding, pvp and dungeons, as well as their design intentions with the tier sets and their thoughts about the covenants and legendaries.

That way players can understand what’s going on with the devs’ and like…why things are like they are and stuff.

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This is exactly the level of communication that we players really need, especially these days. Thanks for taking the time to update us, it’s appreciated.

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Certainly appreciate the detail. Wouldn’t mind, though, hearing what the plan with the Necro legendary is? Any plans to tune/alter that going forward given the feedback?

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While not directly related to rogue, isnt the idea of keeping all the specs tier sets about the same in terms of performance (say, aiming to keep sets about a 10-11% dps increase) kind of counterintuitive? I say this because there are obviously some specs who are pretty bad on Single Target, and some who are extremely strong in Single Target, therefore increasing both specs dps via the tier set leads to things staying the exact same essentially- bad ST spec is still bad(comparatively) and top tier ST spec is still top tier. Obviously theres going to be some natural variance in top performers and bottom performers, but currently(just using 9.1.5 as an example here since its current) there is a fairly significant gap in the top 5 performing specs in Single Target dps and the bottom 5. If the aim is to keep tier sets equal in power across the board, can we expect tuning to the base power of those bottom performers for 9.2 as well? I ask this since, I play (or did play, and dont anymore because of their poor performance) some of those bottom performing specs and would hope that a number of those poorly performing specs receive the necessary attention they need for 9.2 and the variance between the top and bottom or “meta” and “non-meta” is smaller for next tier.

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What about bugs that have existed for awhile but have just been forgotten about? Such as what’s outlined in this post?

i honestly have not enjoyed outlaw rogue in shadowlands outlaw is my main and i barly play my rogue anymore due to how poorly they play in shadowlands even the teir 2 and 4 didn’t make any difference all it did is generate more cbp this is what i would highly recommend… firstly i would buff between the eyes by maybe 80% so it can actually do some meaningful damage and feel good to press second thing i would recommend is uncap bladeflurry reduced at 8 targets // moving to teir set 2 pistol shot has to be buffed in someway for this set to work maybe deadshot would be better moving to 4 set is a buff to between the eyes making it do damage once again unless it is buffed on its own i prefer this over that. Make outlaw good again for all content

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