Class Set Feedback: Rogue

In this thread, we’re gathering focused feedback on the Rogue class set, coming in Eternity’s End.

Please note that initially in the PTR, class sets are a work in progress and will undergo substantial design changes in the near future. We’ll let you know the details of those changes as they are developed, both here in this thread and in our Development Notes thread.

Thank you for testing Eternity’s End with us!

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Note: At the time of this post, no in-game testing has been done, so I will only discuss one particular aspect of the set at this time that needs nearly 0 testing to determine whether it’s good or bad.

Outlaw’s 4-Set effect (Tornado Trigger) is exceptionally underwhelming-
[Pistol Shot has a 50% chance to load a Hidden Bullet from your sleeves, up to 6 times. After loading 6 bullets, Between the Eyes has its cooldown reset and costs no energy.]

Our uptime on Between the Eyes is already exceptionally high between our various forms of cooldown reduction, and the ability itself doesn’t exactly do crazy amounts of damage even with a critical hit. There’s also the high likelihood of this set proc trigger when Between the Eyes is about to come off cooldown anyhow, negating the limited impact it would have in the first place.

While I understand the idea of having a set around the main ‘theme’ of outlaw rogues since we’re the only rogue spec with ranged moves as a consistent part of our rotation, the impact of just resetting the cooldown and removing the energy cost of a couple Between the Eyes casts is just lackluster and practically a non-gain, especially in times of high energy regeneration thanks to Adrenaline Rush where it’s already easy to overcap on energy.

I’d suggest maybe making something where the Between the Eyes procs would do more damage, or possibly when consuming this special Between the Eyes cast you gain some sort of crit damage % buff. Perhaps loosely inspired by Blood of the Enemy, that way the crit damage % bonus would be effective in both single target and cleave? Either way, the current 4-set portion of Tornado Trigger is not very inspiring or promising for anything of a power gain for Outlaw and I think it should definitely be reworked in some way.

I can’t/won’t comment on the other portions of the class set such as the Outlaw 2-set effect or the Assassination/Subtlety ones yet as I feel those will need testing of their current iterations, but will bring those up in a future post. (The fact the assassination set has 0 impact in multi-target situations whereas outlaw/subtlety do is not promising sounding at first glance, though.)

Thank you for your time.

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Hello,

As with all other posts going up at this time, <insert obligatory ‘this hasn’t been tested in game yet’ disclaimer>.

I’m mostly here to talk about the assassination rogue tier set bonus. While I appreciate teh attempt to move us more into a bleed/poison dot centric spec, as a great wise man once said - this aint it chief. Our bleeds + deadly dot do maybe 20% of our total damage if not a bit less. So I’ll go over what I think the issues are with both bonuses one by one while trying to keep it shortish (just kidding it’s gonna be long).

2p - “Shiv’s debuff causes your Bleeds to gain 25% Critical Strike for 9 seconds.”

When I first saw this it kind of puzzled me. Firstly an issue a lot of sin players have with the spec in the first place is the fact that you HAVE to shiv on cd already. Period. Which players of the spec aren’t really a fan of. It should be a button that you play around and press to do big dam inside of a short window, but it’s just another uptime debuff. It’s already a really boring ability and our 2p capitalizes on that by adding a pathetic 25% crit chance for bleeds. Ok cool so another rider on top of the nature damage rider that has at most 40% uptime. This amounts to less than a 2% gain for us and doesn’t change our gameplay AT ALL (which was said to be the main focus of the tier sets). I would much prefer to see something that would make shiv usage dynamic instead of continuing the ‘slam shiv on cd no matter what’ kind of gameplay it is currently. Or even something like idk a shrouded suffocation type buff as a 2p but linked to all our bleeds AND deadly dot would make all the sin rogues burst with excitement if you know what I mean.

4p “Vendetta causes Poisons and Bleeds on your target to expire 100% faster.”

Ok so there’s a ton of misinformation going around about this and it’s honestly triggered me pretty hard. We have this already in our talent tree, it’s called exsanguination, and it’s absolute garbage. This type of effect without mega haste + x3 shrouded suffocation is just not good. It doesn’t matter if we pair duskwalker + obedience and have 1 min vendetta’s to get the 4p proc more often…it just let’s us fit an extra rupture + garrote inside of the 30% dam buff. It’s not that great because our bleeds don’t do damage as it is. What would be actually sick would be if this sped up the ticks of bleeds and poison inside of vendetta. Then we would be on to something. But as it stands as an exsang effect that includes deadly dot this is very underwhelming on top of, you guess it, not changing our gameplay at all which was supposed to be the intention of the tier set bonuses.

All in all, while the attempt to move the spec into more of the dot-centric indentity that it maybe should be is admirable, it falls flat on its face with the current iteration. This either needs a sizable tuning buff or a complete rework or maybe even both. And I would love to see some actual synergy between the 2p and the 4p like many of the other specs are getting.

Updated after testing on PTR.*

Yep it sucks. The 2p is completely unnoticeable. Like it literally does nothing. Please change. The 4p, while I still hate it as the thing that’s supposed to define our spec this patch, can maybe be fine if the 2p is made to directly synergize with it. I’m still a bigger fan of making dots tick x2 faster during vendetta instead of the current iteration but it’s not nearly as bad as the 2p.

Make 2p make shiv’s bonus nature damage apply to bleeds. Easiest change that would solve the tier set most likely. Still very boring but effective.

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Making the 4 set proc give the 25% BoTE crit damage buff is actually a really good idea that never even crossed my mind.

To be honest it feels like whoever designed the Outlaw tier set has literally never played the spec before at all. The BTE debuff doesn’t pandemic so you have zero reason to cast it early but you also don’t want to hold it because of restless blades. It does zero damage if it doesn’t crit and matches Dispatch if it does… Even if you gave it a damage buff it would have to be a massive buff considering the amount of procs you’re even going to get over the course of a fight is very small.

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ya a 25% crit damage aint a bad idea, but i also would like a damage buff to bte as a whole :slight_smile: like the ace trait in bfa

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So, the assassination tier set at face value has some interesting ideas. The 2-set seems like an attempt to both increase bleed damage, and also make shiv a slightly stronger dps cd. It doesn’t really accomplish this because our bleeds don’t do a massive percent of our damage, and it’s tied to crit so it ends up being a pretty small gain overall. Shiv being a stronger button would definitely be an interesting set overall, but that would require changes to the 4-set.
The 4-set adds an exsanguinate effect to vendetta, which is also pretty interesting. It kind of has a similar problem where it is tied to our bleed damage and has the added difference of making us refresh our bleeds during the window multiple times, when normally it happens once at most. If I was making changes I would probably do something to increase dot damage overall for the 2-set to make the exsanguinate more valuable, or lean heavily into shiv on the 4-set to really make it pop and also improve the 2 set to go with it.

The outlaw 4-set also seems to have some issues since cdr makes between the eyes really high uptime already. Outlaw 2-set looks like it has potential to be really cool. Sub mostly seems ok, but I’m sure people that play a lot more sub than I do will have better thoughts on it.

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Maybe make the outlaw mastery stat weight better with the tier set. It’s so frustrating to get ilvl upgrades that’s loaded with mastery on it, then to sim it and find out it’s barely better because that stat is so bad for outlaw. Maybe make the 2 set bonus also give additional chance at main gauge procs as well. That way the stat will have more value. I’m just so tried of that stat always being the worst for outlaw.

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As much as I love the RNG gimmick from Outlaw rogues, and also by reading and analyzing my self the feedback about the set bonuses that you can find at Wowhead at least my self can tell that they feel a little bit exciting I guess (?) but at the same time it feels kinda lack luster.

The (2) piece set bonus ‘Your Main Gauche has a 25% to fire a pistol shot’ I guess it feels good for PVE a CP generation but definetly not the case for PVP ( I am assuming that both pve and pvp will have same set bonuses). and the 4th piece set bonus, eh. Honestly it doesn’t really feel that well, and it does not provide neither a significant damage increase neither for PVE and PVP.

I was honestly hoping that the set bonuses were more focused to help out the RNG nature of Outlaw with rolls, to increase the durations of buff rolls (you can even include some RNG on it with some proc of some sort) or, at least, make either our fillers or finishers a little bit more relevant, maybe buff pistol shot damage a little bit. I think there are many better alternatives for set bonuses than these that were suggested.

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Honestly we aren’t even sure if the Pistol Shot from tier will giver CPs, I hope so, but I do agree with your point about easing the RNG frustrations felt by outlaw rogues. Finding a way to grant free rolls, or even empower rolls sometimes would be a neat way to play around the RNG hellscape that outlaw can sometimes feel like. Because as it sits right now, the 4 set is bland and just plain bad. The CDR is useless on something that has such good uptime anyway, not to mention the fact that BtE does no damage for being such an important spender.

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Even if it gives combo points 99% of the time they’re going to get wasted in a realistic scenario and not a made up sim. You’re not going to just sit there and energy cap hoping it procs for one combo point.

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Outlaw set bonus doesn’t really feel that good. Pistol shot damage is only buffed by either talent proc and legendary. giving us a random maybe 1.5k damage shot that may or may not give CP it just feels terrible. You can even make the set bonus to work with AR, or something else. Hopefully Blizzard reads and take suggestions on this one, because honestly just the 2-set piece alone is gonna ruin Outlaw PVP (assuming PVP sets are getting the same bonuses).

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The outlaw set is terribly underwhelming as an outlaw player, both 2pc and 4pc adds 0 flavour to the class outside of additional procs which the spec currently is full of. The 2pc is based around a pre existing 30% rng trigger and simply adds an additional rng trigger on top for extra damage and cp generation which is purely purposed on feeding the 4pc bonus that essentially does what the spec already has in built by adding additional free BTE casts when we already reduce the cooldown on BTE giving it already a high uptime for its purpose. Both of these set bonuses add nothing for mechanical playstyle or the themed flavour of the “gambler” spec. Mastery for outlaw rogue has been a completely untouched stat for its entire existence and this set bonus is not a way of attempting to fix that, it simply turns the buff slots machine into the proc lottery by adding more and more rng triggers. This current 2pc is just shadowy techniques for outlaw, and the 4pc is a piggy back for an ability that is focused around a buff rather than the cast.

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Assassination:

2pc: don’t even notice. Maybe make shiv refresh all bleeds or apply all bleeds in addition to the 25% crit?

4pc: again, don’t notice really. Would rather have it make vendetta apply it’s own 20 sec super bleed or something and maybe also make all bleeds tick faster but not expire sooner. I dunno.

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In PvP, the Outlaw set bonus is extremely bad. One of our main builds involves stacking modifiers to get a beefy pistol shot fairly regularly, but firing it off during coordinated moments of opportunity.

If the 2p procs consume Opportunity or Greenskins, that build will be significantly less viable because we will have no way to control our procs. Even if it’s a net damage increase, Outlaw sustain damage is already our strong point. Getting a slight bump to that at the cost of our main window to force CDs or secure a kill is not a positive trade-off. Greenskins build will probably fall out of favor completely, or actively avoid this set bonus.

If it doesn’t consume procs, then it’s basically worthless. The damage of pistol shot unmodified is not that great, and we already have crazy amounts of combo point generation.

The 4p looks good on paper for someone who doesn’t play Outlaw, but the spec already has extremely high CDR naturally. Not being able to control the moment at which the proc activates means there’s a good chance that our BtE will reset at inopportune times, and the energy cost is irrelevant. It needs to proc way, way more frequently than after 6 coin-flip Pistol Shots (even with the 2p) to consistently have any value; and even in that case it will still feel horrible for the many times it will decide to proc right when you’re about to finish resetting the CD anyway. Other people in this thread have explained in greater depth why the 4p is bad for Outlaw, and I sincerely hope their feedback is listened to.

Both of these bonuses are extremely boring and lackluster in a best case scenario and has anti-synergy with one of our most popular builds at worst. Subtlety is going to overshadow Outlaw even more than it already does with their new set bonus along with the powerful synergy with the Kyrian legendary and Master Assassin; Outlaw will become even more niche than it already is.

Please reconsider the Outlaw set bonuses.

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Outlaw 2pc is good, simple and straightforward dps increase
Outlaw 4pc is just bad. The 4pc generally does not come into effect until BTE already is at 5-10 seconds left on cd thanks to outlaws innate CDR through Restless Blades and True Bearing. BTE debuff already has a very high uptime and the hit does not do much damage on its own anymore.

Assa, bleeds generally only compromise about 15% of assa’s total damage. The 4pc will make vendetta windows more interesting, but the overall throughput increase of the set is rather low.

Sub is overall a very good set, there does seem to be an oversight where Kyrian ability: Echoing Reprimand; the 7-pt finisher when consuming animacharge is not being factored into the 4piece proc chance.

i cant be happier with the 2pc, its a fun straight forward set bonus and dps increase, while also pushin certain legos, talents, and conduits into the spotlight.

4pc however is just unfun and useless :frowning: due to restless blades and now with the new amount of cp generatio nthe 2pc provides, we have and always had 90+ uptime on between the eyes. i feel like this can be fixed it the 4pc was reworked to a straight damage buff to bte to make it worth and exciting to get the proc.

also! pleasure fix the blunder buss legendary bug. the pistol shots procced from this legendary dont flurry

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So I did some napkin math over in Rogue section. Learned a few new things myself.
My only major concerns are

  • The amount of wasted CP’s that no one seems to talk about.
  • Value of good Roll The Bones will diminish drastically. I am afraid we will be forced to run /cancelaura macros to get rid of certain bonuses to minimize CP’s waste.
  • Greenskin appears to be only viable legendary for Outlaw, as Blunderbuss is bugged for AoE scenarios and will only overcap you more often.
  • Blade Flurry becomes an extra GCD in our ST rotation, not to mention that OL is already 2nd or 3rd highest APM spec in the game.

When it comes to 4P bonus, everyone has already said it’s useless. Not sure what else to add there.

So yes, overall, I find the entire speculation of it being 8-10% overall dps increase to be more wrong than right. That’s just feedback based off my experience as OL rogue. I hope I am wrong.

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So based on the conclusion and test with one of the top rogues in china “Yeluo” , We got some feedbacks for the PTR rogue.

  • The set for sub rogue has none of the interaction with any legendries, such as Akaari legendry. 4p does not trigger 2p for extra shadow blade, in aoe case this set is low damage.

  • Nightstalker does not increase black powder damage, same as Finality does not increase second damage black powder these are bug for a long time please notice. Because 4pc will give extra combo point which means rogue might use Nightstalker in 9.2 instead of Shadow Focus in 9.1.

  • 2pc shadow strike trigger shadow blade will be replaced when you use your OWN shadow blade.

  • For outlaw rogue 4pc equal to 0 damage increase, because between the eye in this patch is almost 100% Coverage, free between the eye damage are low also it cost combo point, in aoe case between the eye have a serious bug, the cri damage only gives 25% copy damage. also, outlaw without ice set in Raid will be the worst spec for rogue, and everybody knows outlaw has aoe cap, so we think this just needs to be redone.

Please consider this feedbacks, much thanks.

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The assassination set bonuses are completely invisible. Some % dps gain but they do nothing to change how the rotation operates. Shiv is still hit on cd, vendetta still is our big damage window. There’s no interplay or any reason do do anything other than shiv on cd and vendetta on cd.

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Initial impressions of all the tier sets are I love the direction and interactions for each spec and they mostly just need some tuning and tweaks. My biggest complaint is Outlaw 4pc.

Assassination:

  • 2pc - I think the concept is great with having something to do with shiv and a push towards bleeds, but needs some tuning and probably an additional effect as it’s currently rather weak and not super noticeable.
  • 4pc - Currently leaning towards the reduced bleed duration feeling slightly clunky but I really like the idea behind it. An idea I really like mentioned above is instead of the duration being cut in half and speed doubled it instead increased bleed dot tick speed by 100% (or whatever x%) with no change to duration. This would fix the clunky feeling while opening up more possible talent options such as Exsanguinate and Crimson Tempest.

Outlaw:

  • 2pc - Love this 2pc and think it’s great as is for both tuning and interaction, but if I could have one change to it I would prefer it to be something along the lines of “Every fourth Main Gauche fires a Pistol Shot” to reduce variance for damage and to make the proc predictable.
  • 4pc - Essentially useless. It either needs a damage bonus, an added affect to the Between the Eyes debuff (such as crit damage or a higher increased crit chance), or a rework entirely.

Subtlety:

  • 2pc - Solid with just a minor complaint of using Shadow Blades as an ability currently overrides any duration of Shadow Blades from the 2pc. Also a little too RNG for me personally.
  • 4pc - Also great across the board with just minor complaints / bugs. Currently seems to not work with Kyrian class ability Echoing Reprimand.

Overall pretty much all the interactions that I was expecting / hoping for are a part of the tier which I’m very happy to see, seems like a good amount of thought was put into the sets. I think with some tuning, slight adjustments / additions, and a rework of the Outlaw 4pc we will have some great tier sets. Thanks for coming to my TED talk.

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