Class Set Feedback: Paladin

In this thread, we’re gathering focused feedback on the Paladin class set, coming in Eternity’s End.

Please note that initially in the PTR, class sets are a work in progress and will undergo substantial design changes in the near future. We’ll let you know the details of those changes as they are developed, both here in this thread and in our Development Notes thread.

Thank you for testing Eternity’s End with us!

3 Likes

Holy Paladin 2pc has a strong hook with the Necrolord covenant. While Vanquisher’s Hammer has been underpowered the entire xpac, it feels strange that the 2pc has such a direct synergy with Vanquisher’s Hammer and could see paladins feeling ‘forced’ to play necrolord due to the powerful synergy.

4pc is clearly overpowered and obviously needs nerfs.

That said, it might be worth looking into the amount of wings uptime paladins could achieve regardless of this set bonus power level.

With a fairly normal 13 CPM of LoD before including things such as awakening and its synergy with 2pc and vanquisher’s hammer, you are looking at high uptimes reflected in this math.

Even if 4pc is nerfed, Holy paladins are still going to see 70%+ uptime on wings next patch and this will definitely contribute to the major healer dps imbalance in the healer meta.

5 Likes

OK well , ret pally 2pc and 4pc is just trash.
Btw 2 pc is just ok but 2s you can do nothing but normal attack. It almost 0% development for ret.
And 4pc maybe decrease the total dps , why i say this? Because in 9.2 ret pally do the burst 1M/1time and if you refresh the big bomb and you cannot make sure it will refresh before you burst or not. If you don’t use this time you lost 2 energy and a free sword of justice. It’s completely decrease set. And could you make 2pc up to 4senconds? we can do nothing in just 2seconds plz. And change the 4pc with holy ok? Now the ret pally is the worst dps in M+dungeon. I will not say that make ret back T0 or T1 but this set is really bad for ret. Just change the 4pc that some way to decrease the CD of wings plz we need this. Almost every dps class can discount their big burst cd but we can’t. And ret pally’s normal dps is like a child. We can do something as a dps only when we burst . And this 4pc is nothing helpful for us . Eventhough you make this 4pc like “send a free” and not “replace the blade of justice” or just “when you use holy power decrease the wings cd” will be better. Just please help ret and stop care about the damn pvp i don’t like pvp and if u guys care this u can make some limit when u use set in pvp. If you do nothing for this set I MUST BE AFK. IM A 10 YEARS PLAYER.

7 Likes

in PvP neither the 2 set or 4 set bonus is overly appealing as we use light of dawn so rarely, I’d much rather something that made Holy Light faster or instant, or maybe a PvP talent that made us actually want to use Light of Dawn

(assuming set bonuses work in PvP?)

2 Likes

For what it’s worth, I like the bonuses for ret. It mixes things up to move away from the 1-minute burst and might free up other options besides kyrian. Having wake consume the blade bonus damage on cast should be seen as a bug and get fixed I hope… Otherwise, I think it’s a fun gameplay loop that pushes a different playstyle than “stack these 18 cooldowns every one minute.”

2 Likes

as a ret palyer, i have to say, i love the 4pc set. i can see it be a fun game play mechanic to get a big heavy hitter ability like wake of ashes instead of blade of justice during art of warprocs~! heck i might even push talents like zeal into the lime like of single target and dead conduits like truths wake. def exctied to see the 4pc

however, my issue comes fro mthe 2pc, i can see why 2 seconds of seraph could be strong, but i believe that window is way to tight for the average player, specially those that dont rely on keybinds and such. even with perfect play, you can fit 2 gcds in that 2 sec seraph, but only if you can tell its coming. which isnt to fun, since you can proc it during gcd and miss the window completely if your not focused on your own buffs and procs

6 Likes

4pc ret looks ok, but 2pc is kind of nonsense. You need a tool to track your white hits to not accidentally be trapped in a global cooldown while the 2s of Seraphim tick. I strongly suggest reworking the 2pc to something more practical.

2 Likes

I really like the 2 piece and the 4 piece’s design intent, however I don’t like the implementation of either.

The current meta around 1 minute burst windows is really fun for me personally but I think what this set as it currently stands to do is shift away to better sustained outside of those windows, albeit with an RNG component.

I don’t like the RNG component at all- especially since this appears to have a really wide swing of mountain peaks and cavernous valleys.

I like how it changes the play but if you are going for an RNG angle with Art of War interplay, I think a better idea would to be to have both the 2piece and the 4piece to be based on Blade of Justice hits rather than Art of War procs.

I like this solution personally, as Art of War procing will functionally be the same as it increases Blade of Justice hits, it smooths out the damage profile between high procs and low procs a bit (no longer relying on nested RNG for the 4 piece to matter), it’s a bit more predictable than procing off auto attacks, and it leads to interesting interplay with holy power usage.

Per the other feedback on this forum, I think it’d go a long way with making the 2piece look more attractive as procing off of Blade of Justice will net you more predictable Templar’s Verdict usage during the two second Seraphim window.

And as developers, it also allows you to tune the RNG dial up or down on the set bonuses specifically rather than being so heavily constrained to a core class RNG mechanic (that doesn’t have great odds to begin with).

This, to me, strikes me as a win to everyone while still retaining what makes the set bonus cool to begin with.

On an unrelated note, please replace Justicar’s Vengeance with Aura Mastery.

Justicar’s Vengeance is mathematically garbage and a “wrong answer” to that talent row and I think it sucks that only Holy has access to Aura Mastery.

Having to choose between insta-Flash of Light, Lay on Hands/WoG buffs, or a button that hits and heals like a wet noodle at the cost of 5 holy power is sorta lame.

I think Aura Mastery fits nicely on that row as far as there are clear benefits to all three, whereas currently Justicar’s Vengeance is super underwhelming.

1 Like

Wanted to post about Protection Paladin 2 and 4 piece.

Prot paladin 2 piece currently looks fine and is passive as we will be casting SOTR during our rotation and will give up to an additional 12% Block percentage that equals about 4-5% dmg reduction which is on par with other tanks 2 Piece.

However for the 4 piece I think this needs to be looked at a bit. The way it currently works is that you have a chance to cast a free Judgement when you block an attack/spell. This 4 piece has the ability to be terrible during single target but potentially wonderful in M+/AOE. I think it should be looked to make it perform well in both and not one vs the other.

2 Likes

Initial testing on the PTR for Retribution Tier bonuses:

2pc: If I casted seraphim and have a 15 second duration from the talent, and the 2pc procs, the duration goes to 2 seconds. I’d also like to add that 2 seconds seems too swift for the average player and they’ll probably not get any benefit from this at all. Should be extended to 3 seconds or something.

4pc: Feels nice. I like the change of pace and making Wake reset is a great change to how you play.

Will add more later but wanted to give my general findings here so maybe the dev’s can see the issue with the 2pc bonus.

6 Likes

4pc prot paladin seems to not work at all.

2pc ret felt terrible to me. Barely noticed it due to the duration being so short.

4pc ret might be ok but I would like a different visual cue when it procs wake of ashes so I can more easily tell which one got reset. Like maybe some flames or something to distinguish from the 2 gold swords that show when blade of justice procs.

3 Likes

Ret Paladin:

  • 2 Piece Bonus:

    • Too short and too RNG based. Often the buff will be over before I can press another ability, or I will not have any meaningful ability to press when it does proc.
  • 4 Piece Bonus:

    • Feels a little to much RNG based. “Good Procs” could end up sending you over the top in Mythic+ while someone without good procs can be rather low dps wise.

It feels great when both proc and you get a “free” Seraphim + Wake of Ashes combo, but it also feels jarring when you play with Seraphim and it de-syncs Wake of Ashes from those set timings.



– The bonuses being tied to Art of War (Auto attacks) also makes Zeal [Talent] and Blade of Wrath [Talent] feel absolutely mandatory which never is a good feeling. –



The most immobile spec having their tier bonus tied to AUTO ATTACK feels very lack luster too. I would really love to see more interaction with Crusader Strike as that’s a very class defining ability that needs a lot of love.



Also, it does not feel good when you have to have a third party addon track procs for you. Art of War has an “On-Screen Graphic” appear when it procs, giving a visual queue to let you know your ability reset.

When Set bonuses do something similar, a visual should be implemented to notify the player.




Edit:

It may be a BUG but I believe the proc of Seraphim overrides the actual Talent Seraphim, so if you just pressed Seraphim and get a proc, it reduces the duration to 2 seconds.

6 Likes

Questing through the zerith mortis and using the tier set for ret hasn’t been very fun. The 2 piece being tied to a proc and lasting a global along with the 4 pc being further RNG on top of that is annoying. If i wanted to play slots I would go to the casino. Stop layering RNG on top of RNG and calling it fun or rewarding.

Changing the 2 pc to at least 6 seconds so you get ~ 3 globals with it would be a good start imo.

Not sure what do about 4pc but RNG on RNG is bad.

4 Likes

I couldn’t get the 4pc to proc at all either with over a 60% block chance.

Gonna have to agree with Zealotry on the 4pc. The RNG on RNG feels bad. It is kind of annoying instead of fun in this implementation.

Would rather have it just be 50% chance to empower Blade of Justice to also explode with some sick holy damage or something. Like maybe 50% of the time, instead of the one physical blade coming out of the ground, it is the main physical blade AND a bunch of blades of light surround it and explode for holy damage on top of the main physical damage. Sorry, maybe I am fantasizing too much. =)

6 Likes

This is a really cool idea but the way you are wording it still makes it nested RNG :slight_smile:

1 Like

Yeah, I guess you are right, plus it doesn’t solve the problem of making the Blade of Wrath talent a must have.

1 Like

Mostly I am just hoping they don’t ruin the flow of play. Right now, the 50% chance to proc either blade of justice or wake feels annoying to me but I think I could get used to it if the Wake proc had a distinct indicator graphic. And the 2 sec of seraphim feels like nothing or almost insulting. To have seraphim pop on your character for that short of a duration looks and feels like the game glitching out. It’s not like the torghast power that gives you seraphim when you kill something. That feels awesome.

Imagine if proccing wings in PVP from Aura of reckoning lasted 2 seconds. It would look and feel terrible. I also think that is why Divine steed was hated for so long. Because it lasts 3 seconds. Popping out a horse for that short of duration feels and looks stupid. With Light’s Barding conduit, it feels pretty good because it lasts much longer. It is going to be very painful when conduits go away and we are back to 3 second steed.

3 Likes

2pc sera overides current talent sera

4pc is fun AF, i love it <3 good work. also minor bug interaction but wake of ashes is getting buffed by the 25% provided by blade of wrath. its a nice interaction that really gives ashes more power and thus more excitement when it procs! overal this is great tier set

It does, the proc chance just feels pretty low. I did the standard H-NW pull to grab 10 mobs, and I only had a total of 9 procs while killing them (intentionally not pressing judgement so I had a good count).

Things to note, it doesn’t generate holy power it just applies the debuff. The proc chance does feel incredibly low however.

For the Holy Paladin set.

I had about 15 seconds of downtime on wings by the time wings came off CD. This just feels beyond broken. This needs to be looked at.