Class Set Feedback: Monk

In this thread, we’re gathering focused feedback on the Monk class set, coming in Eternity’s End.

Please note that initially in the PTR, class sets are a work in progress and will undergo substantial design changes in the near future. We’ll let you know the details of those changes as they are developed, both here in this thread and in our Development Notes thread.

Thank you for testing Eternity’s End with us!

1 Like

Somehow Mistweaver did not get the worst set of the healers. But quite honestly, it’s not great either.

2pc - A minor 2 second increase on the Essence Font buff does nothing more than what Rising Mist can do already. Sure, it gives a bit more healing to our mastery and a (seemingly) extra 4 second increase with Rising Mist talented, but not much more than that.

4pc - Seems like a rune of power but for monk. The proc on Thunder Focus Tea is nice, as it’s generally used on cooldown, but that requires setting up to make sure you will not have to move from the area until the rune has disappeared. Even then, Thunder Focus Tea is used mainly on Rising Sun Kick, which will just waste a gcd of the rune. All in all, Mistweavers do not need this healing increase as we do a ton of hps already.

Overall, the tier sets are lackluster. If anything, it would be nice to see a small damage increase come out of the tier set, or even buff some other abilities (bring back Secret Infusion perhaps?). The healing increase is unneeded, but there are other areas that Mistweaver needs work on. Whether it be a damage reduction element to Life Cocoon-- or a buff to the spell in general-- or allowing us to move with Soothing Mist once again, anything would be nicer than this.

11 Likes

The Brew set bonuses need a major redesign. This has already be highlighted by the community.

Adding to shuffle uptime, which already has 100% uptime, provides no value. I understand it’s early in the PTR, and want to give the benefit of the doubt here, but it’s honestly perplexing.

The Brew time reduction is too small to be of value. Obviously increasing this is hard to balance as “Brews” effect multiple abilities. A larger reduction to Celestial Brew only might be a solution to this.

Overall Brewmaster survival is fine. Bonuses to damage would be preferable.

In general, giving some tanks damage and some defense is likely to make balancing challenging.

12 Likes

The Brewmaster set bonuses need considerable help to stay competitive with the other tank sets.

2-pc:
This is easily salvageable. It’s not flashy but I don’t think it really needs to be. The 4% Damage reduction is cool but underwhelming and has no damage increasing component. Breath of Fire does very little damage as-is, so I think adding +30% Breath of Fire damage and changing the 4% to a 5% would be nice. Another possible approach would be a smaller single target buff, like +15% Breath of Fire damage into the 2-pc but also changing the soft cap on targets from 1 to 3 or even 5.

4-pc:
There are two components here and need to be addressed but this bonus likely needs a full-scale rework. The increase to Stagger duration from the 4-pc is useless. I dare say less than useless because it is a trap. Scrap the Stagger duration completely. If the 4-pc made Blackout Kick give an additional stack of Elusive Brawler, then we might be in business. Either way, the 4-pc bonus also provides no damage value, which should be fixed as well. Make Blackout Kick after Breath of Fire do increased damage and hit nearby targets or something.

9 Likes

Thank you for the extra shuffle uptime- love it!

2 Likes

I sincerely hope you’re joking, the extra shuffle uptime is completely, utterly, 100% useless.

Even the most novice Brewmaster, who has never read a guide on the spec before, should have no problem whatsoever maintaining 100% uptime on shuffle. Buffing shuffle uptime, even if it was tuned to buff it by a ridiculous amount, is completely useless.

8 Likes

There is very little to say about the Brewmaster 4pc bonus except that:

There is no noticeable difference between wearing it and not wearing it.

Shuffle uptime is already 100%.
The added CDR from tiger’s palm will have no meaningful result. For CB/FB this is easily eaten by natural downtime. For purifying brew it is a negligible increase, that likely is outweighed by natural downtime in ability use regardless.

This set bonus is not salvageable, please redesign.

6 Likes

Mistweaver:

2 Piece: Extending Essence font HoT will be lackluster and lets us proc our gust of mists 1 extra time and only allow for 1 extra tick of the HoT.

4 Piece: Do we really need a zone of empowerment to make our healing stronger? Mistweavers are already the top hps class in the game. Additionally, this would do nothing to help Mistweavers in any other content apart from raid. In M+ you rarely need to actually pump huge heals and are more often dps’ing and using TFT to reduce the cooldown of rising sun kick for more damage. It would be nice if this zone also increased our DPS by a certain amount as well or the 4 piece should change all together.

TL:DR, Mistweaver doesn’t really need to do even more hps, would be nice to gain some dps or make something completely unique.

6 Likes

Mistweaver:

2pc: Underwhelming. 2 out of 3 talents in the level 50 talent line already provide increased Essence Font duration so this effect is rather underwhelming. Would definitely be more interesting/cool if this was reworked. Perhaps make the 2pc increase the duration of all mistweaver hots?

4pc: This set bonus is numerically quite strong (assuming the 450 number is correct). My only issue is as more and more systems are layered onto of monk to increase its hps, mastery continues to decline in value. Mastery is perhaps the strongest its ever been thanks to the gust of mist conduit, yet monks still rarely go out of their way to gear for it.

4 Likes

As many people have already said - in it’s current iteration the brewmaster 4 piece tier set is not functionally useful and would be a trap to try and use. It needs a complete rework conceptually and have its successor either be exceptionally defensive or be paired with a comparable damage increasing component as all the other tanks have enjoyed thus far.

In addition as well the 2 piece set, while useful for a pure defensive value, is particularly thin and boring when it comes to do anything different with our playstyle or rotation. Adding on an additional damage component to this or reimagining this set from scratch could help make it more exciting to have/use.

5 Likes

For Brew,

I won’t say anything that wasn’t already said in this thread, but I think these could potentially be addressed by looking back to some of the Brewmaster Azerite powers. Training of Niuzao, which gave mastery scaling with your stagger level, helped augment our defensive abilities by (at-times) allowing us to dodge at-will. This was a fun mechanic (in my opinion).

For Mistweaver:

I’ll echo what a few have already said – Mistweavers do not need more healing, we need a reason to be brought to groups. In raid, that can be hps, but this is extremely encounter dependent and we already bring enough hps as-is. In M+, we need damage and a worthwhile external DR CD. Perhaps the tier sets can bring these sorely missing areas.

7 Likes

The bonus for Brewmaster is incredibly bad. Even the most novice Brewmasters will have 100% uptime on shuffle, so extending the duration is laughable. What kind of thought process went into that?

The Mistweaver 2-pc set could be a lot better. Holy Paladins got it made when it comes to both their bonuses and MWs get a 2 sec duration on essence font and a rune which is counter intuitive to the MW mobility playstyle.

I would love to see vivify corrosive cleave worked into the tier set instead of either of those options. Lord knows MWs could use a dps increase. Or they could finally bake in a DR into the tier sets so MWs can finally be taken to world first kills.

5 Likes

Brewmaster:

On the EU forms the brewmaster set is best described by boothym, “The Brewmaster 2PC and 4PC set bonuses are very weak and are going to have barely any impact on gameplay. With the 4PC set bonus you get 1 extra celestial brew for 12 minutes of perfect gameplay with 100% boss uptime, and why is shuffle even mentioned in this like its not already 100% uptime.” As said above this set really has no impact on our gameplay and we can go on with our days without noticing if we have the tier equipped or in our bag. The only way this tank set could be salvageable in current state and maybe have brewmasters equip this set, instead of what ever is best itemized, is to increase the 2pc to a way higher number then 4% (Brewmasters really don’t need more survivability right now, they do pretty well just due to the nature of the spec) along with increasing the brew cooldown reduction above 100% making you have more then 1 extra celestial brew every 12 minutes (the shuffle duration could be completely removed from this tooltip due to it already being 99-100% uptime as long as people are hitting buttons).

Personally, in its current state or even after buffing it does not seem fun to play or even rewarding to loot. I personally think that this set should be reworked like resto shaman. The two set is what ever but compared to other tanks sets it seems lack luster and could give a better reward rather then increasing damage reduction. Compared to other tanks the only other two set that doesn’t increase your damage directly is prot paladin. That being said prot paladin gets a damage increase in their 4 set along with most every other tank (if not already in other tanks 2pcs). I am not apposed to the 2pc being a slight damage reduction in its current state but, the 4pc though should align with other tanks and increase brewmasters damage in some way.

If the tier set stays in its current state when the patch goes live, I will be looking forward to obtaining it for my windwalker spec, but will probably remain in my bags when I play brewmaster unless its the only piece of gear I have in that slot.

Brewmaster:

The 2-piece bonus is fine. It’s very boring, a raw Versatility bonus would be more interesting. When you compare this against the five other tanks, even the passive ones (such as Prot Paladin or VDH) have interactions with their talents, Legendaries, and so on that make it a bit more exciting than a boring 4% DR buff on 75% base uptime.
The tuning on it is pretty competitive, it’s just dull.

The 4-piece bonus is a pair of bonuses that do nothing. Increasing Shuffle uptime is useless. Brewmaster Monks already effortlessly achieve 100% Stagger uptime. A cup can be half-full or half-empty, but it can’t be 120% full. Even having this as a possibility to consume the 4-piece is actively detrimental. It gives players the ability to accidentally waste an ostensibly-useful bonus (Brew cooldown reduction) on something that can’t ever be useful.

But the Brew cooldown reduction is also not useful at all. Used perfectly, assuming Breath of Fire never sits on cooldown, Celestial Brew never sits on cooldown, zero downtime, and no 4-piece bonues are ever wasted on Shuffle duration, this grants 1 extra Celestial Brew cast every 12 minutes (actually more like every 12:13). That’s obviously poorly tuned, but even at a higher value it would still not hold value. Some players initially suggested making it apply to Keg Smash instead, which would cut the added Celestial Brew rate down to every 4 minutes. Even so, you’re almost never using Celestial Brew on CD. You don’t just jam every defensive cooldown the second it comes up. That’s not how tanking works.

Don’t worry, I didn’t forget about Purifying Brew. As currently tuned, this bonus reduces the average PB CD from 7.88 sec to 7.62 sec, or about one quarter of a second. That’s 4 minutes and 9 seconds to get an extra PB cast. Still bad.

This isn’t a bonus that can be tuned or fixed in a reasonable way to make it provide any discernable value, and tying bonuses to Breath of Fire won’t make it interesting. It’s just a boring, weak skill. Even Charred Passions, the one BoF-related bonus that has ever had any impact on playstyle, is only good because it boosts the value of other skills (Blackout Kick and SCK) to a rotation-altering degree.

Also, it’s the only tank set that provides zero offensive value. By comparison, every other tank tier set offers a meaningful offensive gain – some are well above 10% total DPS increases in AoE.

Edit: Good!

2 Likes

Greetings, monastic adherents. As you test the set bonuses on PTR, some notes and known issues:

  • Mistweaver 4pc has a known issue which causes it to break Soothing Mist after drinking Thunder Focus Tea. This issue will be resolved in a future build.
  • Brewmaster 4pc will be redesigned in a future build. We’ve heard your feedback that you’d prefer a more focused bonus and will be acting on that desire.
13 Likes

Windwalker

I know it needs to be tested for how it will play out but my concerns with current iteration of Windwalker are:

2-Piece
Nothing bad about this. I wish this was baseline as I find the cancel Fist of Fury gameplay to be annoying for how many other things we already have to track. I would rather this be a baseline tweak to the class than a tier set bonus.

4-Piece
Though it needs to be tested on how it plays out, this again seems like another thing to track. I worry that it will cause the Windwalker rotation to feel clunky as we approach the bonus damage, we would fill with excessive amounts of Tiger Palms and blackout kicks, leaving our big hitters untouched just to line it up with the bonus damage. It’s fine but I struggle to see the fun in that and worry that the nuance of min/maxing the damage will leave the rotation feeling clunky and frustrating.

Again, I may be wrong, but I’m pretty concerned about the overall feel of how this will play out.

6 Likes

NOTE: I got scooped by the blue post while writing this. I’m going to post it because I finished it before I saw the post, but this is for the original version of the tier set as of PTR launch.

I’m gonna take a second to go through the Brewmaster 4pc set bonus. The 2pc is mostly fine, if uninteresting, but the 4pc is seriously lacking.

Before I do that: I think there is a grain of potential in making a “Breath of Fire Combo” set bonus (similar to Blackout Combo), but there is no tuning knob that makes the Shuffle extension good. That leaves the Brew CDR, which does have a tuning level that it would be good—but it is one that is high enough that I don’t think it’ll be good for the spec.

Let’s start with a baseline. If you take the Light Brewing talent (which is pretty standard—talent isn’t super powerful or interesting but it is better than the others on its row) and play a normal rotation (i.e. not ignoring TP), you get an extra Purifying Brew every 44 seconds and an extra Celestial Brew every 158 seconds.

We can calculate the amount of value that you’ll get from the 4pc in different combinations without too much difficulty.

Let’s start with the basic case: Kyrian Brewmaster using a regular legendary (Stormstout’s Last Keg, Charred Passions, or Mighty Pour): you’re going to get an extra Purifying Brew once every 209 seconds (3m 29s) and an extra Celestial Brew every 720 seconds (12 minutes). This is 4.5 times worse than simply taking Light Brewing.

In fact, the latter number is so bad that there are 0 fights in Sanctum of Domination or Castle Nathria where you would gain a single Celestial Brew cast (because every fight over 12 minutes long also has enough downtime that your “time spent pushing buttons” is < 12 minutes).

(If anyone opens the sheet, they’ll notice a field for “Tiger Palms per Keg Smash”. Changing this only changes the values by a few seconds, so the results are very similar whether you use SCK for AoE and/or CDR via Walk with the Ox).

We can repeat this calculation for Necrolord, which benefits due to increased CDR on TP during Bonedust Brew. Down to 9 minutes. 1 whole extra CB on Sylvanas. Maybe 1 on Denathrius at the very end of the fight.

But what if we use the Shaohao’s Might legendary to fish for extra CDR on Tiger Palm casts? 1 CB every 5 minutes and 38 seconds. This legendary is very bad for Brewmaster damage and loses you the defensive benefits of whatever other legendary you’re currently using, so you’re giving up a lot to get 1/2 of a “Light Brewing”.

But wait, what if we use Spitfire to fish for extra Breath of Fire casts and eschew SCK entirely in favor of TP spam? That brings it down to an extra Celestial Brew every 3 minutes and 52 seconds—except that that this also loses you the benefit from Light Brewing, so it is actually a net loss of Celestial Brew casts.

Time per additional...
Purifying Brew Celestial Brew
Light Brewing 44s 2m 38s
4pc (standard - Kyrian) 3m 29s 12m 0s
4pc (standard - Necro) 2m 37s 9m 0s
4pc (Shaohao - Necro) 1m 38s 5m 38s
4pc (Shaohao & Spitfire - Necro) Never Never

So in practice this set bonus would need a 3-4x increase in power to the Brew CDR effect in order to be interesting.

I don’t think that printing “…decreases the cooldown of your brews by an additional 3 seconds” is going to do anything but highlight how bad the CDR on Tiger Palm currently is, so I would strongly suggest replacing that effect entirely.

Again: having a “BoF Combo” set bonus could be fun, but the effects tied to it have to be interesting and sufficiently powerful. The ones currently on there are not.

Personally, I am kind-of a fan of the suggestion that Abhmonk made farther up: building off the forced-dodge gameplay that we had in Legion (via high raw mastery) and BFA (via Training of Niuzao). That is a fun minigame that we don’t get a lot of right now, in part because of how mediocre Mastery rating is in raid and how you don’t get much opportunity to force dodge with 50 things hitting you in Mythic+.

Alternately, a set bonus that removed Celestial Brew from the GCD and gave it a second charge would also be pretty great :slight_smile:

5 Likes

Not much to say about MW bonuses other than what has already been said. We DO NOT need more HPS. We already excel at that. But we are weaker in many other areas.

2 PC: Boring. An extension to a very weak HoT. We already have Rising Mist to extend our hot duration, we don’t need another passive increase that provides essentially nothing. Doesn’t add anything new to our kit or change our playstyle at all.

4 PC: Obviously good for HPS if the numbers stays the same, but again isn’t needed, and just makes our playstyle more restrictive by having to stand still in a rune for 10 seconds every 30 seconds.

Please take the opportunity with tier sets to strengthen one or multiple weak points of the spec and provide a change in gameplay or more kit interaction.

Hot overhealing could instead be converted to absorb shields.
Targets with hots applied could get minor damage reduction.
The mention of a corrosive dosage style interaction is fun or the rune also providing a damage and healing increase so at least you have a choice with how you use it.

4 Likes

I would love to see that the mistmeaver set improves their weakness rather than their only strenght (pure HPS).

Playing both resto shaman and MW monk i cant stop noticing that compared to resto, MW its:

  • very mana hungry
    • lacks a worth raid CD
    • they aoe DPS its not even remotly close

The Tier set do not adress any of this weakness, as It Will only improve its only strenght, but at the cost of restricting mobility.

I would love to see something like this:

2p: targets hit by revival Will stagger x% of their incoming damage for the next x seconds
4p: Drinking Thunder Focus Tea summons a Progenitor Rune of Healing for x seconds, futhering empowering the spell while inside its bounds:
• Rising sun kick: Will hit all near targets at x% effectivenes
• vivify: mana cost reduced by x%
• renewwing mist: Will not incur in duration reduction
• eveloping mist: increase the healing recieved from your others spells by an aditional %x

3 Likes

The mistweaver 2pc is incredibly boring, it just doesnt really contribute anything interesting to the spec.

The mistweaver 4pc is boring and also annoying as hell. It’s restrictive to have to stand in a circle, even if its a rather large circle. You put this circle on a 30 second cd and it lasts for 10 seconds? Essentially 33% of my time throughout a fight should be in this circle, which I doubt could happen due to mechanics ect. I won’t sit here and tell you what the 4pc should do. I just don’t think the current 4pc is FUN. it will be good numbers wise but that doesnt equal fun.

1 Like