Class Set Feedback: Hunter

In this thread, we’re gathering focused feedback on the Hunter class set, coming in Eternity’s End.

Please note that initially in the PTR, class sets are a work in progress and will undergo substantial design changes in the near future. We’ll let you know the details of those changes as they are developed, both here in this thread and in our Development Notes thread.

Thank you for testing Eternity’s End with us!

I am only going to speak for BM when I say as of right now, it feels bad that the tier set is doubling down on BM being this single target spec when it’s such a fun spec to play in M+.

MM is currently already ahead of BM on aoe potential, and that’s evident when you look at the top 20 players for each spec on Raider io. These tier set bonuses are only going to further widen that gap.

Not sure on how the numbers would work out for balancing, but I think a cool change to the 4-piece would be, “Kill command critical hits proc Beast Cleave.” To save a GCD on multi-shot and instead allow us to funnel damage into a priority target, save focus, and maintain Beast Cleave uptime.

OR, make it so that the 2-piece is something along the lines of “Your Kill Command and Beast Cleave critical strike chance is increased by 15% for each stack of Frenzy your pet has.”

Or both! Like I said, some number tweaking may be in order but I think both of those changes would make the spec feel a lot more competitive than it currently is, as well as potentially cause us to start looking at different secondary stat priorities with more focus on mastery.

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This post focuses on the SV set. Basically going to be a tl;dr,

  • Really great theme for tier set, love how it works with flanker’s advantage and WFB

  • Very strong for AoE

  • Not super exciting numerical bonus for single-target because we have to switch from a strong single-target build to fully use tierset

  • Hard to balance tierset as it is right now because any direct number tuning makes it extremely broken (in a good way) for AoE

Some suggestions to make the tier set for Survival more exciting for raid/single-target include:

  • Change the second part of the 4-set to be “additional X% on primary target”
  • Add some sort of effect to the wildfire primary target dot to take more single-target damage
  • Buff non-Nesingwary Trappping Apparatus legendaries to be more appealing to offset the AoE focus of 9.2 tier set: perhaps making Rylakstalker’s also buff Raptor Strike in addition to its current effects.

Bit of a tricky situation because, as it stands, Survival might use Wildfire Cluster legendary in single-target as well, which feels less-than-exciting compared to other single-target alternatives

but the wowhead first impression here for survival: https://ptr.wowhead.com/news/hunter-patch-9-2-tier-set-bonuses-guide-writer-first-impressions-325063 is very solid as well.

3 Likes

Hello, and thanks for opening up this channel.

I will speak from a BM perspective since I am more proficient with BM than Marks, and I don’t play Survival. I also will lightly touch on Mythic+ but will focus more on raiding since someone likely has a better perspective on the Mythic+ benefits and downsides than I will.

Tier 2-Set Bonus
At the time of making this post, the tier bonus is as follows: “Your Kill Command critical strike chance is increased by 15% for each stack of Frenzy your pet has.”

Issues I have noticed.

This set bonus further emphasises the strength of BM being single-target damage. While this is not necessarily a bad thing, BM throughout Shadowlands has lacked sustained AoE damage since the loss of our BFA essences and Primal Instincts, Dance of Death and Rapid Reload azerite traits which helped prop the spec’s AoE damage up in the later tiers of BFA. Our AoE damage is very low outside of Wild Spirits, and to a lesser extent, Resonating Arrow combined with the Rylakstalker legendary for Kyrian hunters.

Suggested Solution.

Change the set bonus to perhaps a lower amount of flat critical strike chance and change the effect to "Your Kill Command and your pet’s Basic and Auto attacks have x% critical strike chance per stack of Frenzy your pet has."

This will potentially improve the AoE output of the spec through more significant Beast Cleave hits and build on the solid single-target damage the spec can output.

Positives.

Increased Kill Command crit potentially opens up new build options for Beast Mastery through the Ferocious Appetite conduit, either the Flamewalker or Call of the Wild legendary effects (although not likely at this point in time) and the Killer Cobra talent on the level 50 row. This is healthy for the spec as tier sets should promote build variety.

Tier 4-set Bonus
At the time of making this post, the tier bonus is as follows: “Kill Command critical hits increase the damage and cooldown reduction of your next Cobra Shot by 40%.”

Issues I have noticed

I can see the idea the developers are trying to go for with regards to this tier bonus. However, it also seems to clash with already existing mechanics in the spec. You will still likely use two Cobra Shots between Kill Commands outside of Bestial Wrath windows, so the cooldown reduction is therefore made irrelevant. The tier set makes the Killer Cobra talent relatively strong, and Killer Cobra already has this mechanic built-in but better, so the cooldown reduction is wasted here.

Suggested Solution.

I think the 4-set bonus would probably be okay if the cooldown reduction were removed and the damage buff slightly increased.

Overall Thoughts

Hoping to get better insight after playing with the sets on PTR, but the set seems like it’s in a solid place. The set bonuses could maybe do with some minor tweaks to reinforce the developers’ idea while removing some of the less impactful effects and improving the spec as a whole.

Thanks for taking the time to read this post.

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The Survival set is awsome for m+, but next to irrelevant for the raid that it comes from.

If you want to focus on raid gear being best for raid, then it needs to buff single target rather than aoe.

Survival, like a lot of specs, suffers from having several talents that are hardly ever used by anyone. Perhaps the set bonus could buff our Serpent Sting and Chakrams so that those talents are relevant for at least one season of the expansion.

Something like Chakrams cooldown being reduced significantly every time it hits a target that is already affected by Serpent Sting. Actually…this should already be baseline for the Chakrams talent and would open an entirely new build up.

From a pvp perspective, BM does not need more single target dmg, and MM does not need accidental cleave. I don’t really play BM, but I can tell you that it would be nice if the MM leggo did something to buff the consistent dmg outside of double tap/resonating (this is somewhat fixed with flayed shot). MM single target is HUGE during burst cooldowns, just a shame that we’ll lose our major advantage by breaking a cc that is basically a necessity and can be incredibly difficult to get in the first place. I’m not sure how best to tweak the tier set bonus. Maybe make it to where trick shots tier set procs won’t break traps? It’s a hard problem to solve!

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Set bonuses can’t interact with talent choices.

You can’t be serious. The current set bonus relies entirely on talent choices. Maybe not directly, but you would be an absolute idiot to use these set bonuses without the corresponding talents.

Specifically Alpha Predator, Guerilla Tactics, and Wildfire Infusion.

This leaves us with one build for both m+ and raid. People who like the Birds of Prey build for raid are completely left out and while Chakrams only niche was some pvp usage, it is also left out here.

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I am serious? Kill Command is not a talent and neither is Wildfire Bomb.

Yes, the set has obvious synergy with some talents but it is not dependent on them being selected. No matter what talents you pick as a Survival Hunter, you have access to Wildfire Bomb and Kill Command. You do not always have access to Chakrams as you suggested tier-set would be.

A tier set bonus cannot interact, nor has it ever interacted with, a talent selection because then it actually forces you to pick the talent. Every tier set bonus only interacts with a baseline ability.

When I say a set bonus cannot interact with a talent I mean it cannot directly interact with a talent itself. Yes, synergy exists, and I never said synergy can’t or doesn’t exist. It would be like saying “4 piece bonus, murder of crows does 5000% more damage” vs “your focus spending abilities deal 5000%” more damage. the former ONLY works with murder of crows and forces you to select that talent. the latter, while having synergy with murder of crows, does not force you to use that.

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Ok…you try this set bonus without those talents and let us know how effective it is.

You will have no choice in those talent tiers, only the illusion of choice.

This is for BM hunter. The 2p bonus seems fine if its solely to boost the 4p bonus. I would like to change 4p set bonus to “Kill Command critical hits increase damage of your next Cobra Shot by 40% or Multi-Shot by 300%”. This gives us some nice needed instant aoe damage outside of Wild Spirits. Shouldn’t be too op because of focus constraints.

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I don’t think you’re understanding what I am saying? The current tier set will function without AP/GT/WFI.

A tier set that benefits Chakrams (e.g.) will not function without Chakrams. We don’t need to keep this back and forth going because it doesn’t seem we have an agreement on what at tier-set should benefit (a baseline kit or a talent)

2 Likes

Make the BM set bonus as strong as the MM set bonus.

There are several reasons why you should not arbitrarily increase Kill Command crit chance.

  1. It devalues crit which we already enjoy.
  2. It is a chance at more damage rather than an actual increase.
  3. It forces us to take talents that buff Kill Command and further takes away from cleave.
  4. It doesn’t affect cleaving, at all.

There are several reasons why getting more Kill Commands through the 4pc is bad as well.

  1. We are going to be focus starved if we do get good procs.
  2. Cobra shot is a filler and will still remain as one even when buffed.
  3. It forces us to take talents that again buff Kill Command and takes away cleave.
  4. It’s counter intuitive to the talent we are already forced to take, and basically just flat damage.

I’m not going to list a bunch of better set bonus ideas, because I doubt the would be taken into consideration. However, there are basic things that you can look at if/when it is redesigned.

  1. It needs to be good in raid, m+ and pvp. Making us better at each thing individually.
  2. It doesn’t need to make us reduce or stack our stat weights.
  3. It can apply to the class as a whole without overpowering certain talents.
  4. It can be fun and engaging rather than just more damage.
  5. Aspect of the Wild sucks, do something with it.
  6. Aspect of the Wild really sucks, do something with it.

Fun designed set bonuses to look at for ideas:
All tank bonuses except Brewmaster (BM 4pc is terrible)
Balance/Feral Druid
MM Hunter
Fire/Arcane Mage
Holy Paladin
Ele Shaman
Destro Lock
(and obviously some others, but please take the criticism)

4 Likes

As a long time hunter main, there are a few things.

  1. BM: The set bonus needs to add something to aoe, perhaps have it add an additional crit component to beast cleave.

  2. MM: when I first read it, I was like Wait, what? The description is MASSIVELY confusing. However, the issue with it makes MM a nearly kyrian exclusive spec. Now that’s fine and all, but the covenant legendary for kyian is GARBAGE.

FIX the kyrian legendary and I think as long as the tuning is good, the set is fine.

  1. SURV: I really like the theme. I love the idea of it being about bombs, however, I think the ST dmg is SIGNIFICANTLY lacking. Of course, thats been surv issue all along. Mostly bc the ST trap play was just soooo bad, mongoose bite being so clunky, and having to surround the spec around birds of prey. I would love to see the spec completely drop that playstyle. It’s just so bad.

For the tier set, just add a dmg multiplier to bombs for ST situations. This would look similar to what you did with the NF antlers leggo. If the bomb hit less than 3 targets, the dmg is increased by 200%.
SURV is NOWHERE near being OP, in fact, none of the hunter specs are anywhere near the top 5 for both raid and m+. Even worse, hunters haven’t had a spec in the top half of dmg meters all tier long, and that’s even with a legendary.

So it’s safe to say, after seeing all the other tier sets, and you can be quite generous with these sets and hunters would still only be a mid-range class.

I don’t like that BM set doubles down on it being the ST spec. BM is one of the most popular specs in your game. Make it worth playing in m+ Thank you.

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He’s saying it would function, it wouldn’t be optimal but it would still function

The problem with this for BM is that multishot does negative damage for BM. All of your aoe dmg comes from using Multi-Shot to proc Beast Cleave

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That’s why I suggested 300% but that might be too weak. We could always go the rapid reload approach from bfa and add raw damage/double proc minus the aspect cd reduction. Our pets are too weak this expansion to solely rely on beast cleave for our aoe. An extra on demand burst of aoe would be really welcomed. That or a tweak to elder antlers would be nice, the 100 to 0 nature of the lego is really meh.

Please fix kyrian leggo and MM is gucci

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I was speaking about that with mm’s aoe too. Multi-shot is absolutely abysmal. You could buff it even 500% and it still wouldn’t be on par with other aoe shots.

Even worse is that MM and surv will basically be forces into kyrian and the covenant leggo is pure trash.