Class Changes in Visions of N’Zoth

(Apparition) #106

Honestly Guardian Druid is the only tanking spec I would have said needed a similar amount of attention to fix the glaring issues with it overall.

Secondly in response to your comments about Season One Mythic Plus and Blood DK’s if you look at the history of the class and when they have been strongest in terms of tanking there is two very distinct aspects that are apparent

  1. It’s usually only in Season 1 when the gearing is low for everyone but when you factor in scaling and the following Seasons majority of tanks surpass the Blood DK due to the classes crippled scaling in terms of gear that has been an issue since Cata.

  2. It has been a case of one element being maybe a little over the top when comparing tanks examples Blood Shields, Healing, Bonestorm etc. However, instead of slightly modifying the one thing that is the issue they gut the ability and then add two to three additional layers of nerfs that just don’t make any sense and stunt the class so much.

So lets see you have Blood DK with the Lowest Overall Armor/Mitigation of all tanks including Guardian by a Significant margin. Mages and Warlocks have more Mitigation and Armor than a Blood DK for example which is ridiculous.

You have Blood DK’s doing the lowest DPS of all tanks in the game by a massive margin the gap between Blood DK and the next lowest tanking class is around 10 - 15K DPS on average which is significant and it’s almost 50 - 60K DPS to there top tanks.

Finally the thing that everyone seems to whinge about in terms of Blood DK’s - their healing. Well if you consider that currently a Blood DK can be doing 100 - 150K HPS and that’s isn’t even enough to keep them alive through the onslaught of damage. While a Monk or Warrior can be doing as much as 40K - 80K HPS while mitigating 70 - 90% of the incoming damage meaning they are pretty much self sufficient and require zero healing from a healer. However, with the DK the healer is constantly spamming to keep them alive.

All we are asking for is MITIGATION bring back the armor that was taken earlier in this expansion and increase the damage the class is doing to make it at least some semblance of competitive.

(Skafest) #107

They were also crazy at the end of Legion. All tanks were good in M+, but Blood DK could run 5 blood dks and time 20+. And all things else being equal they had Gorefiend for the win.

What is your source? On warcraftlogs raid Blood DK is the #5 Mythic raid and #2 heroic raid.
It doesn’t have an easy graph for comparing M+. I can lookup top runs > damage done> tanks > Key level 20> sort by damage and the difference is 5k (23k vs 28k) outside some crazy good parses. Unless you are talking 60k peak burst? Sure warrior could use some small nerfs b/c they make all the top 10 on half the dungeons (and 16-18 of top 20).
Sure DK doesn’t have any top 10s. But unplayable low dps is false.

I agree that other tanks have too much self-healing in their base toolkit (and trinkets). Blizz’s solution to under-performing is to buff their weaknesses making them all more similar.
Druid strength was stam/armor but other tanks keep getting buffed to the point it is no longer a druid strength. So, their 8.2 solution for druid was give them more active mitigation up-time, the monk/war strength.
More boneshield uptime is probably the solution for Blood DK, since they baked more armor into it (in 8.1) besides just “blocking” when consumed. In raid it has great uptime b/c only one mob is hitting, while M+ with lots of mobs hitting it eats the shield much faster.

(Lepermessiah) #108

For real. Heaven forbid we actually be able to hold our own again while solo questing. Everything seems to be based on group content so we get murdered on our own? :rage:


Oh boy. Unless you have fallen asleep behind the keyboard after you enter combat you are able to keep 100% up-time on bone shield without effort. The only issue is when you first enter combat you might take a hit before you get bone shield up. But assuming no wipes in M+ or long pauses you can keep it up the entire time. There are also plenty of weak auras to assist you or just make your own like I did. On boss fights bone shield should never fall off. The problem is that even with bone shield up dk’s are like cloth and still get trucked. If you can’t keep up 100% uptime on bone shield in M+ your doing it wrong. It should never fall off mid pull.

Perhaps I missed where they buffed bone shield armor in 8.1 because its not in the patch notes. What did happen is they nerfed blood dk armor by removing the armor bonus from veteran of the third war. As of right now blood could use both mitigation and offensive buffs to bring them more in line. All the azerite traits are trash and need a tuning pass as well.

(Skafest) #110

It was in some blue post if not patch notes when they nerfed DK armor, they gave boneshield more Str scaling armor to compensate. Wowhead has a changelog in 8.1, boneshield granting armor went from 40 x Str/100 to 50 x Str/100. It looks like there was a hotfix build reverting it back (with no date or patch). Druid Iron Fur armor and monk stagger brew scales on Agi (as a comparable tank ability).
My guess was bone shield up-time in M+ to explain why they are the #2 most popular mythic raid tank and #5 high end M+ tank.

Every tank could use some offensive AoE buffs to bring them in-line with warriors in M+. Raid tank dps is more balanced than it has ever been (with DK at #5 mythic or #2 heroic tank dps, neither of which is the bottom).
I just don’t like the exaggeration that “we are the worst by a country mile” when logs and representation says different and your fav is the bottom in representation.

(Kaivax) #111

I’ve added the following new fix to the notes in the OP:


  • Discipline
    • Schism now increases damage done from Priest spells and abilities only.
      • Developers’ notes: This is intended to be consistent with other class cooldowns.


Since you’re (justifiably) nerfing Affliction, do you have any intention of addressing why the other two Warlock specs can’t compete with it? Now that Frost, Arcane and Windwalker are getting buffed, that’ll leave destro and demo to likely be the worst specs in the game, right?

(Ojoverde) #113

Pretty much this! nerfing deathbolt solve nothing than making affliction more useless for other content than raiding.


Is this live? I just tested on the ptr and essences/trinkets are still buffed by schism

(Chromey) #115

Doesn’t hurt to ask:
Can we get Drain Soul to be on par with Shadow Bolt as a filler dps cast so the spell isn’t only about situational Soul Shard gain that is rarely relevant?

Or heck, just remove the Soul Shard element and make it castable while moving.

What I and other casters and healers in this game wouldn’t give to go back to the fun class design of MOP.

(Lacryma) #116

This is very frustrating to read. Especially since it wasn’t a bug until a developer decided it was. I’ll preface this by saying that what I write next is not directed at Kaivax, but rather the person in charge of the design of Priests, and thus the individual we have to thank for Voidform.

Thank you for making abundantly clear that Shadow has absolutely no place in the only real Old God oriented content that has come up in the last few expansions, unless played at the top 5% of Mythic raiding scenarios, where everything breaks anyways.

You win.

You pick Disc as a Winner because you want Priests to Heal and only Heal.
You pick Shadow as a Loser because you can’t handle Priest’s ONLY DPS Tree competing with Mages.

So you win. I’ll play my Dwarf Frost Mage.

Be sure to buff Mages across spec by another 20% for some reason, and nerf Shadow 20% more also before this expansion is over. Also don’t forget to give Mages at least 10 more glyph options.

I honestly don’t think they have enough yet.

While your at the design table, perhaps a Glyph to turn Water Elemental into that neat Shadow Fiend with many eyes would be a good start? Then you could design some Arcane / Void Glyphs and some Shadowfrost Glyphs across the board. Oh and don’t forget Twilight Fire Graphics!

Then you can just delete Shadow in 9.0 and call it a day, right?

(Lacryma) #118

Please understand that I am not trying to come off as a jerk, or be rude with my words above, but the developers cannot be ignorant of the fact that Shadow needed serious mechanical fixes to their entire class for 2 expansions now.

We also need to have 2 DPS Trees so that a situation like this does not ever happen to the Class again. What fun is the game if your spec is no longer enjoyable, or plays completely different than what you rolled originally? That’s the real problem here.

If Shadow is truly over-performing or is crippled by a playstyle mechanic that very few like (such as Voidform), then that’s alright. Most players understand that massive changes don’t happen overnight. But at least with other classes you have a secondary option.

Shadow Priests have no such recourse. We’re automatically pigeon-holed into healing, even if we don’t like it. This is because even though Disc could be that alternative, you have to for some reason keep Priests as the odd duck with 2 Heal Trees; even though they can only perform as a single tree during in any combat situation.

Moreover telling the Priest Community that we have to wait till the next expansion for fixes or meaningful redesigns, is NOT acceptable at all when we have no reason to believe anything will be fixed as long as you have the individual designing our class that is currently overseeing it.

I’ve heard nothing about plans to address any of our problems, and thus I must conclude that Blizzard does not consider Voidform a problem at all, even though any Priest who played from Wrath on has a serious problem that Blizzard, for all intents and purposes; deleted an entire spec and replaced it with something else.

Can Priests have a 1 time Class Change option till whoever is designing for them either moves on, or gets it together? The bias shown to Mages in the form of buffs, cosmetic glyphs and other matters are just too obvious at this point to overlook.

We need solid confirmation on whether it’s even worth playing Priest or whether any of the concerns that the Priest Community have are being discussed at all. Yes that means we need you to make an actual statement that we can take as an official announcement.

(Amelyra) #119

Lol @ that SPriest rant. Ya’ll have been kings of raiding the last 2 tiers and now you are getting brought back down to the rest of the specs. Good fricken lord.

Edit - Nevermind, Lacryma doesn’t even raid or do any content other than World Quests. They have no idea how good SPriest has been. Clueless rant.


So uh, can we get focused will stacking back to 20%, angelic feathers suppressing slows, or spectral guise back to compensate for this and the atonement change then? Or are you guys just okay with nerfing an already mediocre spec that people like to gutter tier in PvP?


The nerf may have some merits but it is an absolute garbage change given it will change nothing with how the spec plays. Deathbolt will still be taken 100% of the time.

(Lacryma) #122

The only thing clueless here is you, and it’s evident by the lack of intelligence with which you post, and the crass rudeness you employ in dismissing concerns that frankly do not concern you.

Never once did I say that I had a issue with numbers. That’s an invented delusion of your own creation. If they say the numbers are bad, I am inclined to believe it. However one does not need to raid regularly to understand that that in terms of playstyle Blizzard fundamentally failed Shadow Priests.

They failed to understand what that community wanted, and decided it was unimportant when they decided to change Shadow Priests into something it never was prior. Most people on the Shadow Priest Discord and Priest forum hate it. Players hate what Blizzard did to our ONLY Dps spec, and we want it reverted in 9.0.

I already know you’ll deny that of course, but a Developer who actually is interested in what Priests really think can go to the Priest Forum. Remove Voidform is the most common statement for a reason.

What Priests really need is to be brought in line with other classes the right way. We need a second DPS spec, and a single focused Heal Tree; if they don’t know what the hell they want to do with Priests.

Having to switch classes because the Devs decide to straight up and delete a playstyle is not acceptable. Survival Hunters could share some thoughts on this sentiment also, as something similar happened to them. Unlike Priest however, they had 2 other trees that could still be played and excel. This is a problem anytime any Class has only 1 DPS Tree.

It wouldn’t be such a issue if Priests had more than one option, but hey I’m sure you’d be all gung-ho if Retribution was changed into a melee centric Healing Tree that relied on Damage to Heal players. Right?

Yeah, I thought as much.


These nerfs to disc priest have convinced me blizzard has no idea what they are doing with balance. How about nerf the over performing classes instead??? Just an idea.

(Msyltek) #124

Is this satire?


Welcome to Ret Paladins when 4.0 was launched. I still can’t stand the combo point (sorry Holy Power) playstyle on what should be a slow huge hitter class. It makes it feel like some idiot decided to take the worst parts of Arms and Rogue and put it into a class for giggles. I haven’t been able to properly enjoy my old main since.

(Lacryma) #126

Funny how we have a Druid, (incidentally the only other class beside Mage that has received any glyphs this expansion) who is one of the first to dismiss the concerns. Call me a pessimist, but I bet they’d have a problem if Feral was deleted outright so that they could have 2 healing trees.

At least I can respect what Smushy is saying, since I too played Paladin in that time period. While I disagree with what she says about Holy Power, quite unlike the rest of the people who keep trying to dismiss my concerns; I can at least understand where she’s coming from and empathize with it.

The difference I feel that exists in those two scenarios, is that Holy Power added more to Paladins as a whole. It didn’t take away from them core-mechanics. Art of War still existed, it just now gave you Holy Power. It was all in all, quite different from how Shadow’s Shadow Orbs were removed; and replaced by Insanity and Voidform.

Paladins are another Class that were for a very, very long time heavily abused. Especially back in Classic when they were called “Very much a support class”, and pigeon-holed into healing. Hell, I still have Alanna’s Embrace which my Paladin used in Classic to heal with.

Even though I have the robe though, guess what? Because of arbitrary transmog rules, I can’t even mog the robe. Go get it again on a Cloth wearer doesn’t work either since Ras Frostwhisper was removed from the game.

There was and is no such thing as a Tank Paladin in Classic. That didn’t take until Spell-power stacking in Protection became a thing during Burning Crusade. Then Paladins really started to take off. I might not be a Mythic raider, but that has never been my end-game goal. I have other concerns IRL.

Being an ahead of the curve, World First Raider (or just a angry wannabe who was carried by friends, and demands LFR be removed from the game) has never been a priority, and likely never will be one.

Despite this, I have however played for close to 15 years, and so I feel pretty confident that I know what is fun; and what is not due to my experiences. Right now, Shadow with Voidform is NOT fun.

Thus, I do agree with Smushy to a degree. Maybe Blizzard should create a 4th spec for Paladins. Perhaps the much requested Shockadin? It’s honestly Impossible to say what direction to go there, without discussing it with the community and getting a consensus. Of course Druid players would more than likely start shrieking if we had “Boomadins”.

Getting back to Shadow Priest. Go to the Priest Discord. Ask people like HEllipsis about Voidform. Listen to the feedback for once, and post a couple Blue Statements in a Class Forum that isn’t Mage or Druid.

If Blizzard does that, people will appreciate and work with you on these things. But changing classes or giving crappy mechanics from one class to another (like how Shadow is a perverse version old Balance), is not going to help sell expansions going forward.

When it’s done at the tail-end of a expansion, after players have geared up X Class, scenarios where design priorities shift and a nerf to what was previously deemed not to be a bug is given; then you have basically wasted players time. Frustration breeds unsubbing and a reduction in faith going forward.