Changes to Combat Potions

In this next build of the Shadowlands alpha, combat potions, such as primary stat potions and mana potions, now have a 5 minute cooldown. Additionally, they are no longer limited to one use per encounter. This is intended to make potion use less of a hassle, less expensive, and more decision-oriented in various situations throughout the game.

In raid encounters, players will still have the option of using a potion at the start of an encounter, but using a potion just prior to and as close to the pull as possible will no longer be required. Longer encounters will now offer up more than one moment to use a potion for maximum tactical advantage. Ending a raid boss encounter with a wipe or a win will reset the potion cooldown.

In dungeons, spacing out potion use will place more emphasis on deciding the most important times to use them.

In PvP situations where combat potions are allowed, such as War Mode, Battlegrounds, and Epic Battlegrounds, the rate at which you drop combat can vary greatly. This change will bring a consistent expected cooldown to combat potions when you see enemies consume them.

Please feel free to share your feedback on this change in this thread. Thank you.

30 Likes

I think this is a neat idea but it really sucks how you jacked up healer mana costs to compensate for this.

feels like a lot of people will be turned off by having to use sleep pot 3 times on nzoth mythic

14 Likes

I like. Always thought it felt weird, (even though it was really not a big deal at all) having to pre-pot just to get maximum efficiency out of the pots.

12 Likes

This is an exceptionally bad change. Not only does this punish players on farm (they get less pots on fights that last less than 5 minutes), artificially extending raids that are not difficult for these players, it means that any fight that lasts 10 minutes (allowing access to a 3rd combat pot) will be horribly overtuned to compensate for the idea of using a 3rd combat pot and drastically mess with how bosses have been tuned for a decade now.

Not only that, but you no longer will be able to strategically hold your combat potion for the most opportune time (see: N’Zoth dps windows). Instead, on a fight that lasts 10 minutes, you MUST use the pot the moment it comes off CD to maximize DPS.

This does not help anyone with ease-of-entry into raiding and only punishes more dedicated raiders.

41 Likes

Prepotions are such odd gameplay, I’m surprised it took this long.
However unless the intention is to nerf potion usage in pve, this may need more thought.

Many fights right now are less than 5 minutes during farm and any fight that is right on the cusp of 5 minutes will create issues with timing and balance and potentially create an even worse situation where people might be using potions 30 seconds before pulls if there are more 1 minute potions.

Further more in mythic plus this will significantly nerf theoretical output. 5 minute CD is a huge nerf there, where only a minor change to raid in the grand scheme. Futhermore, how will this affect things like Speed and Invis pots?

Hopefully there is a more sophisticated way to solve this, otherwise I worry about creating a more problematic situation in raiding and a dramatic nerf to 5 man consumables.

Also, how does this relate to healing potions? Still separate from the DPS potions, with a 1 minute CD out of combat?

28 Likes

Think of how this will affect M+.

Will tanks be forced to only speed pot every 5mins now? Is this still tied with invis pots? Imo, completely separate utility and damage/mana pots.

In a raid sense this is alright, outside of short fights. Keep prepots, but keep the 5min idea too. Getting rid of it is pointless.

edit:
Again, this is a pretty cool change for when you guys want to lob us another two lust fight. Negative change everywhere else though.

9 Likes

Using warcraftlogs, you can go back to see how many fights you would be able to benefit from 2 potions on both farm (now) and during progress (~6months ago) if this change were to go live. I did that and here are the results (keep in mind, simply being over a 5min fight does not mean your class gains the entire benefit of their 2nd potion, and because of that I count that as a NO*):
Progress (February 2020)
Wrathion: Yes
Maut: No
Skitra: No
Xanesh: Yes
Hivemind: No*
Shad’har: No*
Drest’agath: Yes
Vexiona: Yes
Ra-den: No
Il’gynoth: Yes
Carapace: Yes
N’zoth: Yes

Farm (June 2020)
Wrathion: No
Maut: No
Skitra: No
Xanesh: No
Hivemind: No
Shad’har: No
Drest’agath: No
Vexiona: No
Ra-den: No
Il’gynoth: No*
Carapace: No*
N’zoth: Yes

Please do not make this change, it’s unnecessary and does absolutely nothing for the game except hurt players. Healers will now have to decide if they would like to use a damage pot or mana pot. Any fight (and there are quite a few of them) that requires you to use potions at a certain time now requires dps to be unselfish and save their potion for specific points in a fight rather than being able to use them on pull, etc. And I’m not even going to touch on Mythic+…

25 Likes

This change does not increase creativity in a fight, it removes it. If you truly wanted to let players do some unique things with potions you would make a change such as:
You lose any potion buff that you may have at the start of a raid encounter (so it does not screw over m+), and you have 2 (or maybe more) charges of pots available to you in a fight, with them being on a minute or so cd in between uses. This would

  1. increase creativity by being able to use utility potions how you actually want to in a fight if your class needs to do so. A great example of this is Carapace. People often used speed potions on prog to make the movement in p3 easier, which was fun to see it used rather than the typical dps pot.
  2. Let classes that have some sort of ramp use pots to better suit their class. Since I play dk mostly, I will use frost as a prime example of this. Using a prepot (such as a strength pot or crit pot currently) does little for breath due to the ramp up time before you start using the cd. Being able to pair it with the start of breath and have the potion last for the full duration would be a nice change.
  3. Lets healers have the option to use more than one mana pot in a fight, which in turn lets them be more mana hungry if needed to cover throughput in a fight where they may otherwise not have a cd available.

Please, PLEASE do not make the changes in the bluepost above. Limiting player creativity is never a good change.

30 Likes

Killing prepots is a good change as it always felt like you were gaming the system, it also it allowed burst classes to do even more burst while ramping classes felt little benefit. The rest though I don’t think is a great direction.

Personally I rather you just made it so Combat potions can’t reset during raid combat while giving us 2 charges for Combat Pot usage. 1 or 2 Combat pot(s) per encounter when we can use it when we want to sounds fine to me. The 5 min CD just makes it so we NEED to use it on the pull so we can get a 2nd one on 5-6 min boss fights.

Also I would love it if you moved some of the offensive pots into it’s own category, for example:

Combat pots - DPS increasing pots, Mana pot
Utility pots - Speed boost, Slowfall etc
Defensive pots - Healthstone, Healting Pot

12 Likes

personally, one pot use per fight is just like, why use one at all? if anything more than just 2 pots would be a welcome change to me with a charge system so that you can use them how you want to (maybe a spriest will use them after a minute and somewhat on cd afterward due to ramping up, etc.). I think more iteration is necessary than just 1 pot per fight.

7 Likes

Based on the original blue post the intent of this change is the following:

-Less hassle
-Less expensive
-Decision Oriented

Will hit all 3 of these

Less Hassle:

The positive of this. Pre pots won’t be messed up because of an early pull. This part of is good and I really like it.

Less Expensive:

Potentially but depends on fight length and where you pot/wipe/kill time. This is case by case and I don’t think a great metric to use but certainly on farm this probably true along with at least some fights.

Decision Oriented:

I can’t agree with this. In the current scenario I have the decision for a fight like Argus to double pot in P1 at the sacrifice of the rest of the encounter (granted you drop combat when you die so you actually get 3 in this fight but the concept is there.) I believe Blizzard themselves have said a decision is more impactful when it is closer to “one and done” (Covenants being a PRIME example currently) instead of multiple uses throughout a fight. If the covenant decision is the “more impactful one” then the current iteration of 2nd pot is also more impactful (for raiding at least.)

Extra:

Shout out to the DK bros that want to use skystep constantly in the open world to make up for their lack of mobility. Don’t punish the poor peeps with a 5 minute CD on skystep while they are questing. That’s just cruel.

Compromise:

So lets treat potions like resources. DH’s have fury reset on pull, same with soul shards and other class resources. On pull, if you have a pot buff active it resets. You get X charges of damage pots (pick your number) for the whole fight. No CD. So if a player fat fingers the pot 2 times, welp sorry. So some skill involved if you want to chain them for something like Argus.

1 Utility pot charge. Skystep or whatever. 1 charge per fight.

I’d say put the mana pots in with the dps pots but I’m sure there is some wiggle room there.

This lets a raid still do a big push in a particular phase by double potting if they want, it removes the pre pot killing 2nd pot issue and it gives utility pots there. Also allows open world potting to continue for those that want to.

Some definite wiggle room here where all pots are on the same charge, put a slight CD on them, etc.

Now this is based on the idea that I don’t accept the premise that this change creates more decision-oriented gameplay. Players would simply move their first pot to wherever the guild needs the pot and just wouldn’t get the pot with their opener. (Which another Blue post said a talent was made for warlocks specifically for openers so this change feels slightly contradictory to me given what was said about warlocks.)

The maximum effect of a stat pot is with CDs and everyone’s CDs are up on the pull and generally it takes a small amount of time to get the first mechanic which means you get to stand there and dps. Players want to stand and do dps, not have to sacrifice it to hold their one potion for a fight for the priority add. Watch any stream, youtube vid of almost anyone and every dps player wants to get that big opener. Don’t take that away. That’s a fun part of the encounter.

11 Likes

The people who are actually hassled by pre-potting don’t do hard enough content for the hassle to even affect them because they could still kill the Normal bosses or +5 keys they are doing without a single pot used by the whole raid.

It doesn’t make raiding less of a hassle, it just lessens the gap between someone who has the dedication to actually farming and using potions as often as possible and those that choose or refuse not to put forth extra effort in being better. And that’s bad design.

12 Likes

I think you’re being a little too critical. I think the change to remove pre-pots is a good one. We’ve all had pulls where some got frisky before the count down ended and someone casted a spell before everyone had a chance to use their potion. Eliminating this is a good and important change IMO. The issue of not being able to use a potion at the correct moment (no longer a 1min CD, but now a 5min one) can easily be changed.

The solution is probably to just give potions two charges, with an internal CD of 1min (so you can’t slam them back to back, or risk a fat finger), but than put them on a 5min CD charge.

Solves every issue, and makes potions better in long term fights.

7 Likes

These two ideas are at odds. Wasting one pot a raid night is not statistically important enough to be changed this drastically. There’s also the fact that the people who do content hard enough to facilitate pre-potting have enough gold to afford pots.

That isn’t a good thing. You saw what happened when Nighthold was tuned with the idea everyone has two Legendaries. When every fight is tuned expecting everyone to be drinking 3 pots a fight, that means it will be harder for the people this change is intended to affect to begin with, because those people aren’t actually potting at all even though for some reason Blizzard thinks they are.

Also:

Edit: And I want to reiterate: the intended audience for this change are people that are too lazy to farm gold for pots and too lazy to care about their character’s performance to even pre-pot to begin with. What is next on the chopping block? Remove Flasks and Food because that requires a Gold investment as well? Yoink Runes? At what point do we stop catering to people who don’t try in this game and let the people who actually care about their character actually express themselves.

7 Likes

I think this is a cool change, but the cooldown is a bit too much. Most fights are designed to last around 5 mins, so in that time you can only use it once.

I believe reducing it to 3 mins is a sweet spot. You can use it 2 times in a 5 min fight, 3 times in a 10 min fight, it aligns well with many major cooldowns and it also works well in dungeons.

Plus, if the average usage remains 2 pots per fight then the demand for them won’t be significantly reduced.

P.S: Don’t mind my char on this account, I’m EU main.

4 Likes

I’m all in favor of eliminating the pre-potting penalty by removing the once-per-fight rule, since as Curoar pointed out, it’s irritating when somebody pulls half a second to early and your “pre-pot” just became a “mis-timed” pot for that pull.

However, if the concern is potion cost (which is a huge concern), wouldn’t the simplest solution be to just reduce the herb requirements of potions?

EDIT: While we’re at it, can we increase potion stack count to 200? That would be a HUGE quality of life improvement.

9 Likes

That fight isn’t 15 minutes long. You would use 2 sleep pots max

If the boss is on farm then how is that a punishment? You already have the boss on farm.

Don’t use N’zoth as an example if you haven’t killed him (sorry but heroic doesn’t count)

And you wouldn’t use your second pot on CD to “maximize damage”. You would use one pot on pull to sync with your CDs (or if the fight has you wait a small amount of time for CDs then you would hold until then). Then you would pot a second time during a burn window or again in sync with your CDs

If we did what you suggested we would pot on pull and have CDs running… Then we would pot 5 minutes later and having nothing running with that… This isn’t a bad change, you are just bad with resource management.

3 Likes

Artificially lengthening the fight duration by reducing the number of pots you use is a punishment when a boss is on farm.

Then you have no idea how DPS works. You only pot with your CDs right now because you only get one in combat. If you get two in combat (see: any fight over 10 minutes in the proposed change) you would lose DPS if you only used 2 pots in that fight because you wanted to ‘save it for burn windows’ vs the person that used pot on CD and got a 3rd combat potion.

1 Like

I’m all for eliminating prepotting. Always hated the mechanic. But I’m not sure that this is the best way to do it. Making dps + utility potions share a cd doesn’t really seem the most elegant solution. The 5 min implementation also needs a slight tweaking.

And I don’t think it’s unfair to say that the expectation is that these pots will go up in power fairly dramatically to compensate for the CD.

1 Like