The simplebandaid right now is to buff baseline templar verdict by x% and nerf the strongest st talents so that our it’s overall a 12-18% buff for st in aoe build and something like 4-5% in the st build
this is a horrible idea, buffing FV isnt it because then you’ll find yourself using FV in 3 target situations. aura buffing stuff is just not the solution people think it is
2 Likes
Buffing either TV or DS is going to exacerbate the issue. The issue is that we lose too much dps picking between AOE/ST. If you buff TV then that kills any cleave builds even more, forcing us to play ST builds in AOE situations like Tindral/Fyrakk.
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"You don’t get what I was saying I guess.
Our problem is not the damage each build can output for their intended purposes, it’s the tradeoff for the damage for which it is not intended.
We both agree on that.
Including FV in Burning Crusade is an elegant way to specifically target the ST damage Ret does with it’s AOE build without buffing base FV.
Because, as you pointed out, buffing base FV would just further the amount of adds needed to cast DS over FV.
Making it radiant is a way to make it do 5% more damage and also give another opportunity to trigger Searing Light (to get to those 3 PPM) beside just the expurgation DoT, WoA and cons.
And they can change divine arbiter in the a similar way as to do the same damage is does now by boosting it’s occurrence all the while reducing it’s primary target damage and maintaining the cleave damage to increase it’s AoE potency.
My suggestion is a talent change, not an aura buff. (And frankly I don’t see how what I suggested can be interpreted as such.)
My suggestion is seamless.
My suggestion doesn’t upend the gameplay like putting ES as a “baseline” spell would."
I think we’re saying the same thing then. I think there needs to be changes to the tree and not just % tuning.
3 Likes
You could buff TV by 12% and then buff DS by an adequate amount to still make it better than TV in two target situations.
You guys gotta be realistic. There won’t be any talents change so the quick bandaid must come through some kind of tuning of what’s existing
1 Like
You point 3 on Auras is where i think they could introduce changes and make it a bit more engaging while doubling down on class fantasy/identity.
In fact more can be done for this aspect by making it a passive + proc capable aura while introducing specific changes for aura base on utility needs.
For example Ret aura could keep it’s current passive and introduce another ability say… if more then X members of the raid takes dmg beyond Y amount, everyone in the raid’s next’s attack deals Z amount of extra holy dmg.
Devo aura could also keep it’s current passive and make a proc of say a 3-5% max hp shield for all members if members of the raid or party collectively takes more then X amount of dmg.
Concentration aura see more uses in PVP and could have a X% chance of breaking out of a single status effect when said status is applied in addition to the current effect.
Crus can be changed to be a good movement speed buff for entire raid by having keep it’s current passive and making it so the Crus aura paladin uses his steed ability, the entire raid gets half the duration he gets from his steeds including talents ala the paladin’s take on stampede. This puts crus aura back in active play in M+ and raid and also leans heavily into the cavalry style fantasy.
Having changes like the above allow ‘‘customization’’ for each fight and M+, allows more reason to bring more then 1 paladin.
Obviously in order to combat the need to constantly change aura by any single paladin, we can also use the current 30 sec blockage as the current ret aura.
We can in fact double down on concept like this to introduce duality auras that have a mix/match 3rd effect only when 2 specific combi of aura is in play by 2 different paladin.
For example, Ret + Crus might increase attack and casting speed by say Y% prolly somewhere along the 1-2% range.
Devo and conc could double up as a reduction in any movement speed debuff say X% less effective on you and prevent spellcast knock back for 5 sec etc.
after reading everything you have stated, I cant say I agree with your perception of how ret is, in its current state.
Ive played ret from the first season to its current season. in season 2 our class had gotten reworked and we were rocking, we were doing massive amounts of damage both in aoe and st. in our current season we are still pumping high numbers. however, other classes have gotten reworked or buffed from last season to this season and its showing. bm hunters for example have gotten nerfed (not quick enough imo, when compared to pallies in the past). they have been heavily nerfed and it still hasnt tuned them in enough. ive seen them still topping dps charts. rogues have gotten reworked (something they desperately needed) and while they are doing crazy amounts of damage, their button load is still problematic in my eyes. some fine tuning is needed with them. Demon hunters, were rocking it as well, until they got slightly nerfed. so your seeing all these classes doing more damage because they got buffed in some way.
in terms of play styles, again im not sure what the problem is with having a simplified rotation is? I mean the button load for ret was absurd for the amount of damage and it wasnt enjoyable or fun to play. alot of players that are ret and that werent welcomed the change to the rotation and the reduced button load. so I think a vast majority of pallies, would disagree with you.
about the legendary, I dont think they should’ve made it that melee needs to create a legendary to up its dps by 8 percent. I think they dropped the ball here because it still wouldnt balance pallies with the rest of plate melee classes.
regarding the suggested changes, we didnt lose 22 percent of st… this number was suggested during ptr when someone added up all the percentages from every spell that had been nerfed and came up with some wild number like 22 percent of dps loss. its just not true, we didnt lose 22 percent of our dps. we lost small percentages on whatever spells that were tuned. I disagree on nerfing survivability, if you played season 1, then you wouldnt be saying that or even suggesting it. we were extremely weak in season 1, not only in dps, but also with staying alive. our mobility caused huge issues that didnt help keep us alive. so when you suggest “nerfing” our survivability, it makes no sense. Dks for example are able to stay alive and deal a butt load of dps or even tank without even dying. so again I dont think nerfing something to “boost” something else is the answer to correcting the problem.
from my perspective the biggest problem with our class is not being able to sustain damage. we can burst perfectly fine but keeping dps at a sustained level is an issue. what I think they need to do to fix st is perhaps adjust the ratio with vers so that it takes less to build up a percentage point because as of right now, ive seen a decrease of roughly 10 percent on vers from last season to this season ( I could be wrong) and I think thats also affecting our dps. not only that but our crit has been reduced as well and haste/mast increased. which has me wondering if they are going to slowly switch back for the next xp thats coming out next year. also, our gear is crappy this season, it doesnt boost vers all that much.
so I dont agree with everything you said, some ideas werent bad but I can see problems with them and I can see people complaining because of how op they might get. in my eyes, the classes were fairly balanced last season, maybe some adjustments or reworks, sure but they shouldnt have buffed alot of them the way they did.
The simplified rotation should never outdo the one pressing the buttons.
My biggest issue witj your notion of “whats wrong with ret being simple” is that there is no choice. Crusading strikes is just so muvh stronger while feeling like trash. I want to press my skills but picking templar strikes is just shooting myself in the foot.
Ret used to have to press 10+ globals to burst but thats not the case anymore. I am so tired of blizzard adding “passive fire and forcet” options that remove a keybind and leaving said talents just superior.
Ret is on the brink of being like dhs where you are 200% forced to play demon blades because it is so busted.
Basically everything you said is not grounded in reality. Not trolling or anything, but when you go from the ES ST build to AOE build there is a 22% ST decrease, the most of any class. The rotation, in my opinion feels fine. I don’t even mind Crusading or Templar strikes. The binary of choosing either decision is really disastrous for its representation in higher content - along with other issues like not having unique utility among other Paladin specs.
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It’s more than just other classes getting buffed/reworked.
Ret has a slight scaling problem.
As for the ST damage, the trade-off is atrocious.
No one is “imagining” doing significantly less going from ST build to AoE build.
It’s documented and demonstrable.
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Not grounded in reality? the 22 percent that youre referring to was constantly taunted prior to 10.2 release. it was pointed out on wow head and by other sources that the 22 percent was actually percentages that people took and added it up to reflect a 22 percent decline. that is reality of it.
Im not saying that we shouldnt get a boost in dps, im simply saying that the reason why we are seeing our class lag behind is because of how other classes were buffed this season.
I use cs vs ts, I personally enjoy it. I can use both but I like cs more then ts. as you said, I have an issue as well that we dont bring something unique to the table. I was against the revamp on ret aura for the primary reason that it didnt bring something specific to a ret pally, just a flat x percent buff to the entire raid and that really sucks. I felt that it should have at the very least brought something, anything to enhance a pally, while buffing other classes.
then nothing effectively changes we still ds in cleave and still need to take 100000 ds talents to do competitive aoe at the cost of st, ret still low cause it can hybrid effectively like every other melee spec. gotta aura buff stuff that cleave and does st. so effectively you’ll see tuning to stuff like boj/bov, wake of ashes (this is a slippery slope) sov.
buffing tv and ds doesnt fix the issue
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My sim is 212 in ST build. It is 165 in the AOE build.
That is ~21.5%. This is the reality. I can link you the sims if you want. There are small variations you can make like taking away the 3s AW duration increase for DS talents or 2 target cleave for fights like Council that sim differently, but these builds are niche to certain raid encounters. If you try to play them in M+ the fallout on AOE is tremendous. For instance, the last time I checked and I am not at my normal computer at the time of writing this comment, if you take the bottom right capstone out for DA you gain 8k ST (probably more this is what I remember from S2) and you lose 13k in a dungeon slice. Pretty crazy.
I will edit these numbers when I get home. Blizzard needs to address these issues for Ret players.
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That’s correct. The point was is that you could buff both spells without making Divine Storm less valuable in 2 target situations. This would not solve the problem with the spec, but I think all Rets would at least take a numbers increase.
Best “compromise” I found for me is switching “seething flame” with Divine arbiter.
I gain 3.4% in ST (5.4k) and loose 2% in AoE (9.5k)
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/cQgr7NpUDGQ3rPMrZHuF4V
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/p42XMzxbe4nkiDr6zoGKu1
sure everyone loves increased numbers. but its good to point out how some buffs would be pointless and ultimately wouldnt fix anything. when people realize the big numbies buff did nothing, they start thinking they got “stealth nerfed” or something and get mad for no reason
i would swap truths wake for DA if anything. seething flame makes our strongest burst aoe button stronger. yes % wise it s probably the best switch out for DA but not gonna be the best thing to do in realistic setting. when you need wake of ashes to absolutely delete something from existence like yzma shadow clones
I did that.
Sim gave me around 7k more in ST but 17.6k less in AoE
Again for my character*
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/hpjqjbBhxjvD6ZVer22P7v
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/euZXQUrQUwGu3vLHLoCvyw
i can see that yes, but again neutering wake of ashes which is probably the strongest button in the game for a gcd for a few extra % probably inst the best idea. since burst damage is very very very good for stuff like yzma shadows or bear boss shadow minions
Sure but it already stuns them and there are 2 other dps that should also be concerned with killing them.
Like that doesn’t make or break the fight.