Cant find tank/heals for keys, they need more incentive

They’ve gone on record about how the 5-person party is coded in such a way that it’s hard to change. However, if I recall correctly, this was about 10 years ago, so things may have changed since then. Also, any code change is justifiable as long as it gets the green light, so it comes down to someone making the argument that convinces a project manager or whoever that it’s worth doing. In that same era, they were talking about how backpack size can’t be changed, and now we have increased backpack slots as a thing.

Granted, that is specifically about “party” size, and the “party” UI, and all that associated stuff. Considering flex groups/raids are a thing, I can’t see a logical reason why they can’t have a “6-person raid” that is then used to do dungeons with if they really wanted to.

Honestly just join a guild or active community. I’m a tank main and have dps alts. Easily find people if needed by asking.

4k dps is fine for 15s but have to remember dps numbers increase if tank is pulling to their cds. But I do agree dps numbers are low often due to them holding cds for that perfect pull.

Fun facts in vanilla and TBC you could be 10 players to most leveling dungeons. I used to take 10 people to farm the Halloween event in SM. Since then it has been changed so there is little doubt they could change it to 6 or higher.

I’ll generally leave the code specifics to you and others who understand it, but would a code change requiring rewrites to huge sections of the game ever get a green light?

That is not necessarily a reasonable conclusion. 10 people is still a multiple of 5, with 2 parties of 5. There is nothing in your story that indicates they could easily make a party of any number higher than 5. A raid group of more than 5 is possible, but that brings other potential complications that I don’t believe you can simply dismiss without at least considering them first.

I think for dungeons if you surveyed all the players that do dungeons what role they have the most fun playing you’d get a ratio of x:y:z of tank:healer:dps. The devs’ goal should be to get close to this ratio.

We can change the ratio by making a role more or less fun. But if tanks step on the toes of dps or healers by making them too tanky or do to much damage it can also be bad for the game.

My suggestion is to adjust group size to get closer to the correct ratio. To maximize the number of players playing the roles they enjoy. I think this would be worth investing into. And we can see that we are not at this ratio because of how difficult it is to get a group as a dps vs a tank.

one big problem is that those ratios are much different for organized groups vs pugs

In before the groups are 1 tank 10 healers and 47 dps. All the more people to not know jack about the run and be full of stupid opinions.

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That’s an interesting hypothesis. I guess we’ll have to wait for the results of the survey :stuck_out_tongue:

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Depends. There’s two major scenarios - first is that the change is a feature or enables a feature that is worth it. If someone made the call that changing group sizes would improve player interest or engagement or whatever, it becomes a straight $ to invest in development → $ in expected financial return calculation. As long as that’s a good ratio, it’ll get priority.

The second scenario is technical debt. If an old code/codebase is making future changes take X% more time/$ to have to work around, someone can make the argument that the first step in doing a new feature is to refactor the technical debt out. Usually, that’s also done in a way where you’re projecting improvements in future development (or upgrading old libraries to newer/easier to develop and manage ones). Sometimes that’s a spiral tho. Let’s say it’ll take 1 week of dev time to refactor in one go. If not refactoring is costing 1 additional day for a new feature, people might just eat the cost because the deadline is more important now (1 day vs 5). Do that enough times, and you might end up “losing” more over time, but each individual decision to skip refactoring was the “right” one at the time it was made.

It’s also the kind of thing that can be done piecemeal. If you’re doing a new feature, do it the “new” way and leave the old stuff untouched. Then, over time, as you’re touching the old stuff, you bring bits and pieces over to use the new. Eventually, you may get to the point where you can deprecate the old, or it’s a much smaller effort to finish the job.

A raid group of more than 5 is possible, but that brings other potential complications that I don’t believe you can simply dismiss without at least considering them first.

Is there? I had a brief think about that, but most of the party-specific spells and buffs are now gone, many people already play with “Show Party as Raid” type UI’s, overall it might end up meaning that the whole Party UI goes fairly unused for a while, but idk that there’s any major complications that I can see from the outside - at least from a gameplay PoV.

If their group finder system doesn’t allow “partial” parties, that might be a weird one to have to work around.

I don’t think such a suverying mechanism exists, and frankly I wouldn’t be surprised if this was a moving target.

While there’s AN argument for group size adjustments, I don’t think that’s the main key. I think the bigger problem when it comes to tank vs dps vs healer and what players enjoy comes down to a few other factors. Take tanks:

  • Does the game encourage new players to consider tanking? If the big ads or characters are Mages, Rogues, Hunters, etc., that’s what people who are picking up the game for the first time are going to be thinking about. How many people are thinking stuff like “IMA BEAR RAWR I PROTECC”.
  • Is the new tank experience easy to learn? Practice? Are there things in being a new tank that turns people who try it off? What IS the fun of being a tank?
  • Is the problem something to do with tanking as a whole, or group finder as a whole?
  • Have the changes to tank gameplay been good? Take kiting - plenty of people I know hate the normalisation of kiting. Or the various shifts we’ve had in self-sufficiency, scaling, etc. Target caps, Vengeance, affixes, all kinds of things to consider in how tanking has developed and changed over the years.
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The ratio will change as the game changes but it’s clear that 1/1/3 isn’t close.

Your suggestion is ridiculous. It also feels like the long way around considering this is essentially a way to not require making friends or tanking or being a desirable candidate.

It’s peak laziness.

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It gets more players playing a role they have more fun playing. I wouldn’t call that ridiculous at all.

I’ve tanked 173 dungeons this season.

No, I mentioned a survey to give realism to the idea because it’s a thought experiment. And yes, the ratio would change as the game, roles, dungeons, etc change for sure.

The holy trinity is a much more established idea in the gaming mainstream now than it was when wow first came out. But I agree that it would be a factor.

It’s been many years since my first tanking experience and I can say the learning curve was steep. Mind you there are many more resources and opportunities to tank now. It takes less time to get into a group to tank now than it did in vanilla. However, there is no practice. Everything is learning as you go. Where as dps learns as they quest. Also, groups are far less willing to teach a new tank compared to vanilla for example.

I wouldn’t call it a problem but tanks have more responsibility. And for some, that’s what attracts them to the role for others it is what pushes them away for sure.

In SL, prideful has put more on the tanks because routes have to be more exact because you want the prideful buff at specific times. And many players did not like kiting but for the most part that has been fixed as far as I can tell. I wouldn’t say no to being tankier or having more TTD (time to die).

I don’t think this would be particularly far from our current distributions. I don’t think there are that many people playing a role against their will.

In my opinion, the limited need for tanks in a raid group is a greater factor than the 5-player party size. For a mythic raid team that’s one tank for every 7 dps. For heroic teams that number can be as high as 1 tank for every 11 dps.

If I remember there were various reasons the number of required tanks was reduced: filling and maintaining 4 tank spots was challenging for guilds and the encounter designers decided it was hard to keep them all busy and seem to have settled on two tanks swapping on debuffs as the limit of their creativity.

Perhaps it’s time to add a third tank requirement for raid encounters?

For a 3/4/13 mythic team this would be 1 tank for every 4 dps and for a 3/6/21 30-player heroic raid it would mean 1 tank for every 7 dps.

Against their will are some strong words. Some people play tank or healer because it’s what’s needed for their group, gets them a group faster, or like op they have a hard time getting a group because of the lack of demand for their role.

Turning 5 mans into 10 mans is something I’m willing to have happen 1tank/2healers/7dps would be lots of fun IMO.

If anything fights should have more variety in the number of tanks needed. Every single boss fight has 2 tanks because of some cheesy mechanic for tanks to taunt swap or hateful strike. It’s really predictable and boring IMO.

Also, more or fewer tanks in raid wouldn’t impact the dungeon tank supply. For example, I dps in raids, which is the role I prefer for raid, and I tank in m+, which is the role I prefer in dungeons.

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I think varying the requirement per boss fight would end up putting more players in a limbo state, much the way healers are often required to swap roles when the number of healers is reduced. I only wanted to heal, but for numerous reasons it was best for me to dps some fights. If someone wants to tank, I don’t see why they should only be allowed to do it on some fights.

The problem goes beyond being forced to swap roles between fights. Especially in SL when considering Soulbinds. Someone who splits roles has to gear for two jobs with the same number of drops chances as those with one roll. Sometimes this means choosing a loot spec on a boss with upgrades for both roles. The guild is forced to outline loot rules on main versus off-spec and the person splitting roles stops looking like a tank or healer and can lose priority consideration on items because “x players will be using it for EVERY fight…”

The game needs more tanks, not less. That’s all I know.

This prompted me to check how many I’ve tanked across my tank chars, and I tanked 271 since I started doing M+ in April. I’m not sure how to feel about that, but there it is.

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This is the problem though. There’s no good way to increase supply. So the other option is to get more value out of that supply. Increase group size and get more dps per tank for dungeons.

You’ve tanked exactly 200 more m+ than forum posts. Gratz.

On the alliance side there is a short on tanks and I dont need RIO to get into a run.

Horde side i find it saturated and i have to make my own keys. Or maybe i am 190 ilvl trying to do 12+ keys. “No its them that are wrong”

The best way to get more traffic on the roads is to increase the number of lanes.

I think if you make more dps spots, you’ll just get more dps.

The fact about road traffic is true and corroborated by numerous studies, but I have no idea about how participation would change if there were more dps spots. However, I do think if there were more reasons for people to play tanks as main it would help in dungeons.