Can we give tanks and healers a reason to be tanks and healers not just a dps who takes damage or dps who heals

[Bagoftotems-whitemane]

oh i forgot 1 class is every tank bro. there is 6 tanks not just warrior so who cares you talk to one class.

[Fingersniffr-living-flame]

cause they are the only one suffering from lack for threat gen if you actually paid attention, Shamans with rockbiter outperformed/ Meta can sustain while spamming one button free then use their HP to pool more mana while being healed/ Rogues dont need to resource gain just pop blade dance and increase their overall dodge chance to just aggro for free they suffer a bit on mutli targets but as along as they have a bleed or poison on the target they get threat gen. Im not an ally player so paladins might be in the same boat as warriors for Prot but I highly doubt it cause it seems Ret just does a better job cause of DPS

[Boomboy-windseeker]

Traditional tanking went to the wayside because people want to run the raid then log off in time to pop their ritalin to do 400 helldiver runs.

Dopamine addicition is a big issue for gamers these days.

[Thouant-sargeras]

@Mewniz-crusader-strike

No, man, if you do 400 dps while 6 dps are doing 1000 is different than doing 400 dps while 30 dps doing 1000
.the lack of 600 dps is way more noticeable in the first case

as an dps tank you can pull close or the same dps so that so the overall the same regardless

@Amoreynn-lava-lash

Increasing a single player’s DPS by 20% is negligible in impact. In a 10 man fight, that’ll be like… 5-10% more damage overall, tops. In a 20 man fight? 2%, maybe less. And the higher your DPS is already is to the expected amount, the harder it is to gain significantly. The bigger the group, the less variance the performance on any given player matters and impacts things. This is why in Vanilla MC, about a third of raid could be afk doing nothing while a third was pushing hard, and they’d still be clearing bosses.

whhhaaat 20% in 10 man is huge XD thats have the biggest impact lol and in 20 man, 2% overall damage still better 2% defensively for miles. Thats true but the level of impact playera have now are 10X more back than. Most players were slower and less knowledgeable, as we saw in 2019 people was doing MC with less people because of the was easier and now the is still easy compare to the player skill.

@Amoreynn-lava-lash

We are not talking about a farm situation. We are talking about progression-style raiding where you don’t yet have the necessary gear to proceed. A “Dps in dps gear” will struggle and hinder your group in those cases.

I didnt say in farm, in the first lockout, In BFD/gnomer and now ST most likely because bosses dont require deep prot tanks anymore, dont hit hard and faster enough. This what i am saying.

Most likely at 60 too. it just how it is.

[Mewniz-crusader-strike]

Man, why cant you understand basic maths, really, in my hipotetic case, a 600 dps is 10% of a 6000dps overall, it IS noticeable, its around 10% slower killtime, while 600 is 2% of 30000dps overall, around 2% slower killtime IS NOT noticeable

[Amoreynn-lava-lash]

@Thouant-sargeras

20% in 10 man is huge XD thats have the biggest impact lol and in 20 man, 2% overall damage still better 2% defensively for miles.

1 player doing 20% more damage will have a less than 20% impact to raid damage - closer to 5-10% impact. In a 20 man? It’s basically 0.

Also, it’s not “2% defensively”, not every class is tanking damage at the same time - 1 is. So a 20% boost to mitigation is a 20% boost.

[Mootwo-earthfury]

I’m not sure what got me down the rabbit hole of looking at these SoD threads since I do not play it and will not play it but yeah, almost every one of them makes me glad I didn’t.

Tanks have always done DPS so this isn’t so much about that but it is about the healers.

This is just like those “healers need to dps” threads on the forum all over again It’s almost like the retail players got transplanted here.

… and people wonder why they can’t find others to group with them and heal. LOL. It could not be more obvious now. I thought it was just the “every hybrid class” player who plays this wants to DPS but it’s this.

Some people may enjoy when their coworker gets fired and they have to do the job for two people now, meanwhile the manager does the same amount of work as always and verbally abuses them for being “lazy”. Most people in that situation will just walk and find a better job where they don’t have to do the job of two and will find a place where they are valued.

[Kuribo-lone-wolf]

I wouldn’t mind this change honestly

[Kraedon-bleeding-hollow]

Right, I forgot people have to optimize and gatekeep some of the easiest content wow has to offer, because it’s simply too hard for the drunken dad community to press 4 buttons. How dare healers be healers.

[Thouant-sargeras]

Its not gatekeeping when its base on skill and just make sense when the level of skill beat the requirement of extra healer or tank.

play what you want but there poof that game is easy and don’t need the extra help (tank/healers). Its not.

[Bagoftotems-whitemane]

newsflash threat doesnt directly equal dps… you can make an ability high threat without doing alot of damage they have done it for years. so if they wanted to they could make tanks keep threat without having to do dps

[Fabulosity-lone-wolf]

I wasn’t even aware this was an issue in retail or SOD unless you want to perform at the absolute highest level?? Like I run 20 keys on a resto shaman and am playing holy paladin in SOD and I rarely DPS at all on either toons. Nobody complains or says anything and I have access to the best gear in the game. Groups do well too

SOD especially is braindead easy PVE. Just tank or heal. Metachasers in SOD are losers. Sorry to say. Thats like requiring alienware pc to open microsoft paint.

TLDR: DPS tank/healer Meta is irrelevant in SOD, and only matters in retail well past the level you need to actually obtain the best gear.

[Stormwolf-crusader-strike]

This isn’t a game design, this is a player generated design.

My Guild has two metrics of success:
Did the Boss Die?
Did any players die?

Yes & No? Absolute W.

[Classicmega-pagle]

As someone who has mained playing a tank for the majority of my time playing wow, I agree with the OP.

I’m basically just a Ret Paladin with RF on.

I prefer playing a tank when the goal is surviving through active mitigation that other roles don’t have access to, and controlling the pace, positioning and mechanics of a fight.

I also enjoy when, through gear, I actively make the fights easier for the raid team by tanking less damage and faster by handling larger groups of trash.

[Ronarion-lone-wolf]

@Argentia-defias-pillager

you belong on the retail dev team

Utility has a " group/raid desirability " factor is flawed.

You can see this in WoW classic (original and 2019) warriors started making up more and more of the raid’s population.

And the utility classes were kept the absolute minimum needed. 1 druid, 3 paladins, 1 warlock, 1 hunter etc etc …

Why? Because damage is a bigger factor than utility.

That’s not a good game design.

[Susurrus-wild-growth]

@Classicmega-pagle

I prefer playing a tank when the goal is surviving through active mitigation that other roles don’t have access to, and controlling the pace, positioning and mechanics of a fight.

I also enjoy when, through gear, I actively make the fights easier for the raid team by tanking less damage and faster by handling larger groups of trash.

• We don’t have active mitigation skills, we have passive mitigation skills, and most of them are just baked right in. That’s been the case for WoW since Vanilla until MoP, and even then the MoP model wasn’t very active at all… just kinda like keeping up Slice and Dice.

• Anyone holding aggro can control the pace, positioning, and mechanics of a fight. Literally anyone. That’s 99.9% on you simply moving the boss to the right places and facing them the correct way. You can do that right now whether or not you have a shield or a 2H.

• Taking less damage doesn’t make a fight easier when healers aren’t going OOM keeping you alive in the first place.

• Handling large groups of trash has diminishing returns either because the problem is some mechanic that doesn’t care about you (like the Nullifiers before Thermaplugg), your AoE caps out, or your DPS’ AoE caps out, or any combination of the above. There is benefit to snagging larger packs when it makes sense to do so, but (aside from Rogues) Tanks are already able to snag very large packs and the limiting factor is DPS/Healer mana or DPS abilities or Tank threat abilities, not survivability.

So of the four things you listed, you’re already doing three of them, and the fourth one is a Retail-esque thing that none of the Tanks get to do except Rogues (and very soon it’ll be very fire and forget).

[Classicmega-pagle]

What’s preventing us from having active mitigation through runes? like all the other abilities we’ve been given in SOD.

It’s just my point of view, I’m not looking to argue with you about my point of view.

[Susurrus-wild-growth]

@Classicmega-pagle

What’s preventing us from having active mitigation through runes?

Lots of things actually, unless you want a rune that specifically gives you Holy Power, then makes you choose between offensive and defensive uses of Holy Power, and then reworks abilities to fit that paradigm, and then reworks other abilities to be able to build Holy Power…

Otherwise you get Holy Shield, hit it when its available.

I really do enjoy having a rotation that matters as a Tank, but we won’t be getting the juggle two resources style of active mitigation we see in MoP+ content without significant reworks. Right now only Rogues have the two resource system, everyone else has just one, if anything at all.

[Classicmega-pagle]

There’s no reason it has to be resource based. It can be on a non-spammable cooldown, but short enough to require attention to when you press it.

There are also fights in wrath that require active mitigation to survive.

Algalon, Festergut, Sindragosa, Lich King and Halion come to mind.

In Cata there is also a switch to more active mitigation from tanks. Prot Paladins in Cata have:

• Holy Shield (30s CD) - Greatly increased block value.
• Divine Protection (60s CD) - 20% physical and magic damage reduction for 10s
• Ardent Defender (3m CD) - 20%? Damage reduction, prevents death if active when you would otherwise die.
• Guardian of Ancient Lings (2 or 3m CD) - 50% damage reduction.

There’s a variety of abilities to use, good and bad situations to burn them and fights are designed around proper usage. That’s more fun to me, personally.

[Susurrus-wild-growth]

@Classicmega-pagle

There’s no reason it has to be resource based. It can be on a non-spammable cooldown, but short enough to require attention to when you press it.

There are also fights in wrath that require active mitigation to survive.

Algalon, Festergut, Sindragosa, Lich King and Halion come to mind.

If its short like Holy Shield and Shield Block, it just gets spammed.
If its long like Last Stand or Shield Wall, it gets ignored unless you have a big telegraphed ability to soak.
If its a 1min CD, chances are it needs to be saved and paired with something else to survive what’s coming… or it gets ignored.

There really isn’t a sweet spot between those two where you would have something more modest than Last Stand, but better than Holy Shield, that you wouldn’t spam, but still want to use under standard boss autoattack situations.

The WotLK style mitigation was not really active either, it was just “hit defensive when boss mod beeps at you”, and every Tank did the exact same thing in that moment. That’s certainly something that could happen in SoD, but that requires every single Tank to have 1-2 big CDs that function more or less the same. Rogue Evasion is not Shield Wall no matter how you slice it, even though I vastly prefer Evasion to Shield Wall. But if we’re dealing with Soul Reaper, that’s undodgeable magic damage that is going to eat my Rogue for breakfast.

Those types of scenarios also require the Tanks to be a bit more tightly bunched up on the EH department, and we aren’t right now by a long shot.

It just… isn’t really in the cards without them doing a ton of homogenization across all five tank specs.