Can sub outmatch outlaw in dps?

I have struggling dpsing with sub, the rotation is conplicated, and the dps output is always low…another class have better dps with the same ilvl…its just me or any1 have the same problem?

What is complicated about the rotation? There’s nothing to it, really. You’re probably overthinking it.

Maintain these things:
Slice and Dice
Find Weakness

Use Symbols of Death with Shadow Dance, never without.

If cooldowns are lining back up, wait a few seconds and pop them all together.

And the damage can it better or at least same amount with outlaw?

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Sub has slightly better single target. Anything with adds outlaw will be better

So do you use rup and secret tech or not? Or just go full evis

ST is only used in cleave situations.

Single target you use master of shadows

I’m not high end, but in my experience…
I play Sub for raid and pvp. And for mythic+ I play outlaw. Outlaw shines in AoE cleave.

A note… master assassin lego on low mythic you get some great aoe out the gate with either spec. Kinda makes chain pulling not so good though. Need to vanish or get out of combat to keep it useful. finality (sub)lego for raid, celerity (outlaw) for mythic and master assassin (sub) for pvp

If there are multiple targets, outlaw will do more damage. It pretty much can’t be denied. The exception is, maybe, a mass aoe situation–and I mean mass aoe. Black Power is quite strong, especially with cooldowns up. But that’s a gimmick, so imo outlaw still takes the cake.

As Aedo points out, outlaw is also not reliant on stealth, and in a lot of M+ you’ll find it’s like an extra minigame trying to get yourself out of combat between pulls. That is to say, it’s immensely frustrating.

All in all, I am tempted to say maybe the rogue class is not for you if your only concern is doing good dps. If you’re not already thinking of ways to maximize your whole toolkit, especially as outlaw, the class probably won’t click for you.

Akaaris >finality

Finality is only a better option if you play only sub but for anyone who is non maxing they will be crafting Akaaris for sub ,celerity for outlaw, and zoldyks for sin.

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With high ilvl Outlaw can match and out dps Sub on ST with good rolls.

If we’re talking about Cleave damage you’ll blow Sub out of the water in damage.

But Outlaw and Sub are nearly identical in terms of learning curve, not sure what you’re finding complicated about Sub and you may just be overcomplicating it in your head.

Sub is essentially a 3 button rotation if you don’t include CDs and Slice and Dice.

You keep Rupture and SnD up, spam Shadow Strike(Backstab out of Dance) and Eviscerate at 4 (5 with Deeper Strat talent), it’s really just that simple.

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Yeah that’s the bare minimum if you want do decent damage with sub.

From experience of raiding with sub this expansion, is as always, trying to fit in as many dance windows as possible as boss timers will allow. Using your dance at the wrong time during a mechanic is definitely going to screw you for the rest of the fight, and you can fall behind a bit.

OP, don’t be a afraid to push two dances as your cooldowns allow during symbols of death windows. You always want one dance up when it comes off cooldown. Push for two dances back to back when you know you’ll at least have one up by the next symbols.

Use downtime to refresh SnD and rupture. It feels amazing when it all comes together. The spec flows really well this expansion.

Sub is a bare minimum spec to begin with, it’s one of the easiest and most forgiving DPS specs at the moment, there isn’t much you can do wrong aside from Dancing when a boss is phasing. Even then you would have to have timers disabled to have that happen.

I mean easy and forgiving compared to what? Feral or unholy? It’s not like it takes much to optimize things these days from a rotational standpoint. Like I was helping my friend figure out his boomkin rotation this morning, and that is some pretty brain dead simple stuff. Like almost auto pilot…

From what I’ve noticed you’ve got to be pretty aggressive with your dance usage to keep up and parse well. It’s a pretty fun playstyle.

An example would be something like Exanguinate build prior to 8.3(it was braindead with giga haste) where using it incorrectly meant your DPS wasn’t going to recover unless you got insane crits or procs.

Sub just doesn’t have anything to setup or micromanage like it use to, when you use to have only one Shadow Dance and Find Weakness was really important any minor mistakes ended up hurting you really bad. Now those things aren’t as impactful and the only time you’ll hurt your DPS is if you do something very wrong.

Subs still fun to play it’s just a very on-rails kind of rotation.

Agreed. The spec has changed massively from when I played it a number of years ago. Unfortunately I didn’t play all of WoD, where it was apparently a meta PvE spec at the time.

I gotta say I am still having a blast with it though. The spec has such a good flow to it compared to BfA. I’m curious now, how does outlaw play compared to its BfA incarnation? By the end of my time in 8.3, I couldn’t stand the swings of RNG with outlaw. It ended up being a big deal breaker for me. Do the rolls still make a big difference?

Outlaw is currently my favorite iteration of any Combat/Outlaw builds. Not having to reroll spam is so nice and if you don’t get ideal rolls you can still quickly reroll for only 25 energy.

Count the Odds conduit is also nice, getting little RtB buffs every now and then feels good. Outlaw is doing a lot of ST damage too, it can compete or even beat Sub with good rolls quite easily.

Good rolls will make your DPS better but bad rolls wont give you low DPS.