This is indeed the issue, Golden’s favorites are never allowed to be wrong side of things, it is why Jaina has come across as bipolar between expansions. However Anduin stands at the center issue With Jaina, Baine and to a lesser extent Genn as they are all being lead by his example as he is held up as the moral compass as of the rest.
Anduin was fine when he was simply the voice of peace on his aggressive fathers shoulder, he balanced it out. However as soon as Varian was removed from the story Anduin was pushed right to Leader of everything in the Alliance. There is no balance there and it has turned Anduin from a relatively minor role to the lead.
Anduin as a character is fine, him being the only voice that matters is the issue. Especially considering that the narrative for the expansion was to be war and faction pride, he basically prevents the Alliance from having either as he makes us quest to save the Horde.
He should have been reeling and having a crisis of Faith after Varian died at the broken shore, that should have been his shock moment and developed him to question if the Horde is worth saving. However the writers simply glaze over that and have him remain the boring pacifist character.
So a few things need to happen:
He needs to be removed as high king and the position removed
He needs to have his failures be brought up and him having to face consequence for them.
He needs someone within the Alliance to challenge his ideals and stand in opposition to his plans.
He needs to show some character development and growth based on the events he has gone through.
Honestly the only way I see any of this happening is if Golden has no hand in his writing going forwards.
Why not just have the Alliance have the Leaders be a Council of United Nations of Race Leaders coming together as one just like the Horde without the High King Title or Warchief title in general.
From there you can have your good side of people discussing what’s right while other side discuss about what’s actually right in their eyes and opinion while it may be wrong but still is right in their eyes. Just basically something to challenge Anduin as a Character since his Father died. Right now He’s kind of meh right now. I wouldn’t mind having Jaina as the Leader of the Alliance but I don’t think anyone would want a Thrall situation much like the Orcs did with Thrall as Leader.
Just basically something to challenge the leadership of the Alliance basically.
You don’t want the same. You want specific aspects of the horde story without any of the consequences. You don’t want to be painted the villain and have literally everything you try to achieve in the war eventually fail. You don’t want your faction to pretty much lose every major conflict in the war after the initial battle.
I would also point out that the horde has lost at least 3 notable characters and that is just counting Saurfang, Sylvanas and Nathanos and that leaves only Lillian as a notable Forsaken character who had literally no build up for the role considering she did a 180 in her personality at the start of the expansion.
You don’t want what the horde has and you lying to yourself if you think you do. I would trade you the animated arc of the enemy factions leader giving one of your veteran characters prep talks for a faction with anything resembling pride. Would you really want to see Thrall giving Genn a pep talk on why the Alliance is worth fighting for?
I am still not sure how people figure the Horde came out on top in the end. They lost both warfronts, have no fleet and their leadership is having to completely reorganize. The only thing they got out of the war is a small island kingdom that was wrecked by a civil war and and invasion and a small bunch of low tech, nomadic fox people. At least the Alliance got a healthy Kul Tiras, it’s fleet and some of the most technologically advanced people on the planet in the Mechagnomes.
Just because we know there’s always a bigger threat such as N’zoth or the Shadowlands, doesn’t mean that they do. And under the circumstances and the amount of knowledge the Alliance possessed, Anduin made horrible tactical decisions, the Horde should have been dismantled during the Fourth War, that was the objective at hand.
To set up the applicable raid for Horde and Alliance. It’s pretty weird doing it as Alliance because you become Horde in order to turn two Alliance leaders into loot pinatas.
Anduin has to be kept back so that the Horde players (and you Alliance players playing Horde) can participate and “win” the raid.
It’s the exact same reason that Tyrande is not allowed to end Nathanos in Tides of Vengeance. which sets up the Darkshore Warfront for Alliance and Horde. You can’t have a total victory by either faction.
I agree with prior points regarding the High King position and the need to remove it, but again, that’s not about Anduin’s character, but the placement of his character. Anduin is likeable, as a character, even without the counterbalance of his father. In the plot, he has not failed, really, and much like, say, Talanji, there are things the character is made to ignore.
He’s shown anger before, hell, he showed anger in the Lordaeron scenario, he showed ruthlessness in the Legion prequel comic he starred in too. The character is a good portrayal of an idealistic and driven young person who was raised to strive for peace overall, even if it damns him.
He’s a likeable character, he just, like nearly every other character, gets poisoned by the faction war narrative.
I think Anduin is a great character, or at least he can be. In my opinion, Anduin was incredibly compelling and interesting at the start of BFA. His words in Lordaeron hit me dead on, they made me believe he would be facing challenges to test his world views.
“You put the torch to Teldrassil…but I failed those who burned. I will not make that mistake again. Surrender or die.”
Go back and watch that part in the throne room. The expression in his face is striking, it kindles to mind the image of Varian. Anduin is a young guy, he’s very idealistic and he wants to use his power to make the world a better place. But things like the 4th War challenge his ideas, they force him to consider how realistic his goals are, and test his methods. He can’t always have peace with the Horde and peace abroad. Usually he can’t have either. You can make a great story with that.
The problem is…Anduin stopped being that person by war’s end. Suddenly he’s ready to forgive all and he considers Sylvanas almost a non-issue (at least as far as I recall, I haven’t been on PTR or gone through spoilers lately). What happened to the young lion in the Lordaeron throne room? Where did all that conviction go?
If handled well, I think Anduin can be a very strong character, the thing is he’s rarely written in a way that makes him shine. Usually he comes off as overly lawful stupid or some form of peace-at-all-costs-and-logic-be-damned. And that guy sucks, so I get why people dislike him, but I really wish more people remembered how good of a character he gets to be every once in a while.
TL:DR Anduin has all the makings to be a very interesting and likable character, but he’s consistently written to be as compelling as a bag of hammers.
I would honestly be fine being villian batted for one expac if it meant the Alliance got some development. Alot of Horde players presume they Alliance player base would hate it but Honestly it would be a nice change of pace to the unrepentant bad guy for once looking to wipe out the horde.
It would have made for a far more compelling story from where i’m sitting.
However we will never get anything like that with Anduin in charge.
Honestly, I never felt like Anduin was that person, it was all an illusion by the Authors to basically try to hide their intentions to write him as basically Lawful good overdrive.
Honestly, Anduin is decent enough and has qualities that could make him likable. He hasn’t really been shown to be acting wildly out-of-character or flipflopping throughout the expansion, so at least he’s been consistent for pretty much all of his existence.
It’s his role and position in the story that’s the main source of the problem. He’s the High King of the Alliance, a “military” position he inherited at the age of 17-18. First of all, the position shouldn’t have existed in the first place, at least not as “High King”. Supreme Allied Commander would’ve been perfectly acceptable and fulfills the same role it’s supposed to be, which is a purely military role. Secondly, while Anduin himself is not OOC, people around him are. He warps people to his point of view, which is something notable in the end of the war campaign - everyone on the Alliance (except obviously the absentee Tyrande) are essentially saying “yep Anduin’s right, not gonna say anything or challenge him”. I don’t see that as being fully on Anduin as a character, but rather on the authors and writers that make him the Golden Boy who can’t be wrong, ever.
He needs to be challenged more. He needs to be more relatable. He needs to know when to put his foot down and say “enough is enough”. He can keep his idealistic position and it doesn’t need to be 100% in the wrong at all times and everyone always berates him for being so stupidly idealistic, but neither should it be portrayed to be 100% in the right with everyone nodding their heads at his sage words when the actual physical evidence leaves a far more nuanced message. This would be steps in the right direction. He needs to be less center stage.
And dammit, a 17 year old, no matter how “wise beyond his age” he is said to be, should not be the commander in chief of a superpower’s armies when more capable people are available. Looking at Muradin, Shandris, Wyrmbane and anyone with an actual military officer rank. Hell, I’d take Gryan Stoutmantle as Supreme Allied Commander, anyone but an inexperienced kid who inherited a military position that shouldn’t be inheritable in the first place.
Not really because your after satisfaction and payback and that isn’t what the Horde got. Instead you would be doing evil things to people who didn’t deserve it, for dubious reasons. Proper bad guy stuff, rather than ‘we get to some evil things to evil people out of vengeance!’
So your saying it doesn’t matter what the Alliance ever does because its justified, So it doesn’t count as ever being as villain batted as the horde.
That is stupid, if that were true then we could spend 2 expacs letting the Alliance be bad guys and then have the Horde have to forgive them for funsies.
I don’t think he even mentions Sylvanas at any point in 8.3. I don’t think he’s even looking for her or her forces, since he says SI:7 is busy looking for the shadow squid. I guess the entire throne room cinematic was him completely breaking character, which is probably why it’s one of the only times I liked him.
I am saying that your not won’t be getting the Horde’s treatment so its not the same. For it to be the Horde’s treatement the closest they could manage would be a third party, like Pandaria to turn up, the Alliance to go full villian on it and the Horde to defend said third party. Then have the Alliance slaughter innocent Horde citizens, preferably uninvolved of any of the things that happened to the Alliance, through underhanded tactics while generally have the Alliance tying or losing stand up fights.
Then you might be getting the Horde’s treatment.
What you guys want isn’t what the Horde has gotten. You want to have the good without the bad. You want being evil for vengeance rather than being evil for giggles which is all the Horde ever got.
I doubt anyone wanted peace because they wanted to hug it out, I’m not pinning that insanity on the Alliance leadership. I think they wanted peace because wars are super duper expensive and it was probably the 2nd most bloody battle, right on the back of the first, arguably most bloody battle in Azeroth’s history, even when compared to the War of the Ancients. That and the reality of war is hell and horror. No-one wants to live through that.
Logistically? Trying to mount an attack that is pyrrhic even in its win condition is a losing move, no-one would make that gamble on anything short of a fight for survival. Even if you trim all of the fat, it is not economically or tactically viable.
Socially? Wars are unpopular. They break a lot of families apart, dig up old grudges and make life on the world hell, both on the battlefield and at home. Keeping peace on the homefront is sort of important, if the ruling party is not a tyrant.
With the Alliance drawing conscripts and the Horde so deeply severed by political instability and only now joined together, I do not fault anyone who commands armies to say ‘this sucks, let’s stick a fork in it and call it done, and if you don’t like it, we can review this in about 30 years when we make up for our losses and decide if we want to revisit this.’. It’s about as ideal as you can get when doing something that is what is essentially math with chance.