[Bug] Hit tables


#4

Great post. If these are proven to be correct it would explain why dungeons feel much easier, along with elites and rares. I look forward to the response from Blizzard after their reference client testing.


#5

To clarify, these particular tests are pretty narrow in scope, just player white hits against a +3 mob. If higher parry, higher dodge, lower crit are indeed bugs, and get fixed, then +3 mobs will in fact be easier, but the biggest impact/implication will be tank tps on raid bosses.

I can’t speak to elites specifically because we didn’t do any elite testing.

Thanks Bliz for looking into it, all of us share a goal of having the most accurate classic possible!


#8

That’s what I thought I was seeing when I read that, but wasn’t sure. Which kind of makes me sad all the same, as that means we were even worse at the game back then than we thought we were.

Although lower crit rates is a HUGE factor depending on who is critting whom. Tanks/players taking more crits would up the challenge considerably as that puts more strain on the healers until they OOM, and people start to die.


#10

Speaking of theorycrafting…

Does anyone have Lhivera’s old theorycraft data? I’m trying to dig around and find it, but it appears to be archived nowhere.


#11

And its for this reason that I sincerely hope that it is not a bug. More parry means tanks take more damage. Less tps means threat capped classes like warriors aren’t quite so nutty as they have been on private servers. The abomination that is dual wield tanking will hopefully never rear its head in classic.


(Aggrend) #12

As I suggested in my first reply, we did a deep dive on this one to compare combat table values directly between our Reference client and WoW Classic. Apologies for the data dump, but because your observations were so detailed, we wanted to be equally detailed in our reply!

We created Troll Warriors in both games and watched the combat table values for auto-attacks.

  • We checked three player levels – Levels 15, 40, and 60.
  • At each level, our weapon skill was maxed, and we used the same weapon for all tests.
  • All attacks were against enemy creatures, not other players, to remove any additional variables.
  • We tested attacking creatures at -5, +0, +1, +2, +3, +5, and +15 levels relative to our level (so for the level 15 test, we attacked level 10, 15, 16, 17, 18, 20, and 30 mobs).
    • For our level 60 test, there were no normal mobs available at higher levels. We instead attacked elite raid creatures at +1, +2, and +3 levels.
  • The exact same creature IDs were tested against on both clients.

In all cases, the Reference client combat table values matched the Classic combat table values:

  • Creatures that are 3 levels above the player have a 14% Parry chance in our Reference client. This holds true for our Classic client as well.
  • Creatures at your level have a 5% chance to Dodge your attacks. Each additional level the target has over the player grants them 0.5% additional chance to dodge. This is observed in Reference client and in Classic.
  • Players have an 8% chance to miss a creature that is 3 levels above them in our Reference client. This holds true for our Classic client as well.
  • Critical Strike chance is reduced by 1% per each additional level the target has over the player. (So if you have a 4% chance to crit an at-level target, you have a 1% chance to crit a +3-level target, in both clients.)

A briefer look at having non-maxed weapon skills also showed identical values between the Reference client and Classic. We also ran several tests while dual wielding, and the results from those tests was also identical between Reference and Classic.

Based on these results, we are confident that the combat behavior in Classic properly reflects the combat behavior of 1.12 WoW. However, we’re always grateful for players looking out for discrepancies, so keep your feedback coming!


I find this post very disheartening
"Creatures that are 3 levels above the player have a 14% Parry chance in our Reference client."
Death and Taxes (CLASSIC RECRUITMENT) Multi-World First
Raids Dungeons Threat and Ranged
Weapon Skill Talents
[Bug] Berserker Stance
Why is the dead beta still going on?
#13

Curious: how confident are you in the accuracy of your 1.12 test client? Were we to get into a time machine and grab the game from 2005, would the code, data, and scripts be identical, or did you have to fill in any gaps?

If you’re confident that it’s correct, then that’s fine; more trustworthy than logs from back in the day or old blue posts. I’m slightly concerned though that any filled in holes might bring with it side effects. To use a pop culture reference, in Jurrasic Park they filled in holes in the dinosaur DNA with frog DNA, and everything went to hell. How much frog DNA are you using, if any?


#14

The reference client, as i understand it is a direct replica of a server from 1.12. Not a private server and not a recreation, which classic is. Its a 1.12 vanilla server.


#15

Bliz thank you for the very detailed tests and reply. I just had a couple clarification questions:

  1. I appreciate the detailed explanation about dodge vs +3 mobs, but this seems to be different from how block behaves. You didn’t address block in your reply so I was hoping to clarify the intended values. Our tests showed ~4.5% vs +3 mobs, should that value have matched the 5% + 0.5% per level formula that dodge uses, or is block intended to behave differently?

  2. With an 8% miss chance for +3 mobs, and a 5% miss chance for even level mobs, does that mean that one of the intended effects of weapon skill is to reduce miss chance by 1% for every 5 points? In other words, would +5 weapon skill result in 7% miss for +3 mobs, and +10 weapon skill result in 6% miss for +3 mobs? That scaling seems to agree with our tests but larger sample sizes are needed to zero in.

  3. Our testing appears to show that unlike miss and glancing blows, +weapon skill cannot mitigate the 1% per level crit suppression. Is this intended behavior?

  4. The following screenshot from retail vanilla shows a rogue missing a backstab against a boss mob while having 8% hit gear equipped:

https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/51063082/58592248-0a0d4f00-8236-11e9-83a8-eeccc624b8ca.jpg

If I’m understanding your reply correctly, that shouldn’t be possible. Is it perhaps the case that at some point before 1.12 the miss % against +3 mobs was higher than 8.0%, and changed to 8.0% some time before or during patch 1.12? Or perhaps more importantly, can you confirm the miss % from 1.12 is exactly 8.0% and not 8.6% or some other fraction?

Thanks in advance for your clarifications.

-Vilius & warrior discord team


#17

There was a recent interview, I saw it in the last few weeks looking for it now but can’t find it at the moment, where they mentioned that different bosses had different stat values based on fantasy. They specifically mentioned that Garr had higher than normal boss armor values because he’s a rock. Because Vex is not a standard mob, based on that interview it could be that it specifically has a higher than 8% dodge chance. If anyone knows what I’m talking about - it was a recent interview but there have been a bunch - please post it. I’ll keep looking for it in the meantime.


#18

I believe the source on that was Tipsout, don’t think he got them on camera for that bit though.


#19

Wow, the 14% parry invalidates a ton of old theorycrafting and forum posts.


#20

I spent several hours, but I was able to locate records of the first two links you provided.

https://web.archive.org/web/20060627191557/http://forums-en.wow-europe.com:80/thread.aspx?fn=wow-blizzard-archive-en&t=7&p=1&tmp=1

Agility, Strength, Defense and Attack Power

We asked the devs for a short explanation of Attack Power and Defense in relation to Agility and Strength. The following should be of some help to those wondering e.g. whether their new +x Attack Power weapon is better than their old +y Strength / +z Agility one. :slight_smile:

Agility

  • Increases Armor Class by 2 for every point of AGI.
  • Increases the chance of a critical hit with melee and ranged attacks. The amount of the increase is dependant on both class and level. For most level 60 character classes, approximately 20 points of AGI will increase your critical hit chance by approximately 1%. Rogues require 29 AGI for an additional 1% critical hit chance, and Hunters require 53 AGI for an additional 1% critical hit chance, but both of these classes also gain attack power from agility and the items available to them typically have much higher amounts of AGI.
  • Increases the chance to dodge an attack. The amount increased is dependant on both class and level. For most level 60 character classes, approximately 20 points of AGI will increase your chance to dodge by approximately 1%. Rogues only require 14.5 AGI for an additional 1% dodge chance. Hunters require 26.5 AGI for an additional 1% dodge chance, but Hunters typically have a high amount of agility, as well as an Aspect spell that further increases their chance to dodge attacks.

Defense

  • Increases the chance of being missed by an attack.
  • Increases the chance to dodge, parry, and block.
  • Decreases the chance of being affected by a critical hit.
  • Decreases the chance of being affected by a “crushing blow”. Creatures that are higher level than your character can land crushing blows that deal increased melee damage. The chance of a crushing blow increases as the level difference between you and the opposing creature increases. Players never deal “crushing blows”, only creatures.

Attack Power

  • Attack power increases your base melee DPS by 1 for every 14 attack power.
  • Strength increases your melee attack power by 2, except for rogues and Hunters. Rogues and Hunters gain 1 attack power per point of Strength, and 1 per point of Agility.

Q u o t e:

  • Decreases the chance of being affected by a “crushing blow”. Creatures that are higher level than your character can land crushing blows that deal increased melee damage. The chance of a crushing blow increases as the level difference between you and the opposing creature increases. Players never deal “crushing blows”, only creatures.

Clarification : when calculating the chance of a Crushing Blow the Defense rating used is limited to 5 times your level. E.g. if you at level 60 have 290 Defense, and a +20 Defense bonus, only half of that bonus will apply in the calculation for the Crushing Blow chance, giving you an effective Defense of 300 (5 times 60).

https://web.archive.org/web/20060507072800/http://forums-en.wow-europe.com:80/thread.aspx?fn=wow-blizzard-archive-en&t=15

motive has shared some details on the calculations of hit and crit chances:

part 1

The way WoW calculates crit rate is over ALL attacks. Crit rate is not based on hits only. In other words, if you have a 5% crit rate, that 5% chance includes misses.

All crit rate adjusting abilities, items, and talents add the flat % to the base % crit rate. So if I have a 5% base crit rate and then use an item or talent that increases that crit rate (let’s use Improved Backstab talent for example - +30% crit), my new crit with backstab is 35%.

Regarding how defense decreases the rate of critical strikes, each point of defense that a target has over the attacker, the attacker loses 0.04% chance to crit. So, for example, if a level 60 Rogue is attacking a level 60 Warrior who has 25 defense, the rogue’s crit rate will be decreased by 1%.

part 2

+toHit items subtract from your miss%.

So, ignoring all defensive actions (Block/Parry/Dodge/etc…) if I have 20% crit chance, 20% miss chance, and 60% hit chance and I equip an item that gives me +5% toHit and +5% crit, my stats become 25% crit, 15% miss chance, 60% hit chance.

New hit chance = (Original hit%) + (toHit modifiers) - (crit modifiers)
60% + 5% - 5% = 60%

New crit chance = (Original crit%) + (crit modifiers)
20% + 5% = 25%

New miss chance - (Original miss%) - (toHit modifiers)
20% - 5% = 15%

I’m unsure, but I imagine the follow two links will be unhelpful to the discussion.

https://web.archive.org/web/20051211234547/http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com:80/thread.aspx?fn=blizzard-archive&T=37

https://web.archive.org/web/20060529065223/http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=blizzard-archive&t=36&p=1&tmp=1

Hopefully this helps somewhat.


[Bug] Berserker Stance
(Xoja) #21

Yeah, I believe they addressed this at Blizzcon when they talked about keeping old data.


#22

It really doesn’t, though. With respect to parry, players were primarily concerned with the boss hitting the tank, which does follow the 0.04% per defence point rule, treating the boss’ weapon skill as 315. DPS players were standing behind the boss, typically, and therefore could not be parried, and most tanks weren’t overly concerned about their own attacks getting parried.

I specifically remember, in discussions of tanks using expertise items in late TBC/Wrath for threat, that it was assumed bosses had some +7-8% extra parry chance. In Vanilla, it was either known or people didn’t care that the data didn’t match the theory, because, as I said, people weren’t overly concerned about the tank’s attacks getting parried back then.


#23

Copying and pasting the spell hit info here in case we lose that archived post.

And so people can test if they want to.

More details here: https://web.archive.org/web/20060628014516/http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-mage&t=952187&p=1&tmp=1#post952187

And spell coefficients (hopefully correct): https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwow/comments/95abc8/list_of_spellcoefficients_1121/

From Tseric on 10/5/2005:

I’ve seen a number of threads recently on the boards pertaining to +spell hit chance and I’ve gathered some information for you which I hope will dispel some of the confusion. Please feel free to post your comments in a reply to this thread.

+1% spell hit chance increases the base chance for a spell to land against a target by 1%

If your target is the same level as you, a spell has a base chance to hit of 96%.

If the target is +1 level compared to you: 95%

+2 levels: 94%

+3 levels: 83% if the target is a mob, 87% if the target is a player.

+4 levels: mob: 72% player: 80%

+5 levels: mob: 61% player: 73%

Etc…

If you wear a +1% spell hit chance item, the above percentages will increase by 1. +2% gives +2.

Etc…

For binary spells only, there is an additional modifier for the resistance of the victim to your particular spell school: fire, frost, shadow, nature, arcane. That modifier is multiplied by your hit chance to get your actual chance to land. This is done with binary spells only, because they never do partial damage.

Example:

Eyonix the Mage (level 60) fires a frost bolt at Yeti of Doom (level 63). Eyonix is also wearing a total of +6% spell hit gear. Yeti of Doom has frost resistance such that he takes 50% from level 60 frost attacks. So, here’s the hit calculation:

0.83 (83% for +3 levels mob) + 0.06 (+6% spell hit) = 0.89

0.89*0.5 (50% damage from frost) = 0.445.

The game will roll a number between 0 and 1, and if it’s less than 0.445, the frost bolt will hit for full damage. Otherwise, a resist message will appear.

2nd Example:

After the resist, Eyonix decides to fire a fireball at Yeti of Doom. Eyonix still has +6% spell hit. Fireball is not a binary spell. Here’s the calculation:

0.83+0.06= 0.89

The game will roll a number between 0 and 1, and if its less than 0.89, the fireball will hit. Otherwise, a resist message will appear. After the fireball lands, the game will then apply spell resistance to determine a partial resist, if any. Assuming the yeti also has 50% fire resistance, on average, 50% of the damage will be resisted.

I hope that illuminates the impact of +spell hit gear on magical combat.


#24

Well, the rogue is dual wielding, right? That increases the miss chance dramatically.


#25

All I remember from TBC/WoTLK was that as a tank, you would worry about expertise to the point that you would remove dodge from the hit table completely. Expertise was still useful past this point but was diminished in value as it was no longer removing both dodge/parry, but just parry. Them stating that the parry value was twice as high in Vanilla WoW doesn’t surprise me in the slightest, because this is how it operated in the expansions following Vanilla as well (and it was unlikely they would overhaul the combat systems entirely).

The other thing I remember, although the values might be off is glancing blows. IIRC +3 mobs had a 30% glance rate and also reduced your white swing damage by 30%. Weapon skill could reduce the glance damage penalty to zero (or something incredibly close to that), but would never remove glances from the combat table. Thus auto attack crit cap was whatever the dodge, miss and glance rate was, as glanced attacks couldn’t crit.

I can’t speak to resistance values on bosses, but armor values on bosses in TBC had 3 distinct values IIRC, and I believe Blizzard touched on this in a blue post like 12 years ago. Raid bosses had 3 different armor types, classified as high armor, medium armor and low armor values, which is why melee damage on certain bosses swung so drastically. This doesn’t necessarily hold true exactly to Vanilla WoW, but it’s likely that they might have used the 3 different armor templates for raid bosses as well (Garr being one of those with the highest).


#26

If it were a white attack that would be right. But yellow attacks do not suffer the dual wield penalty.


#27

Armour values, HP, and resistances of mobs are very different. But as far as I remember, hit stuff was pretty much normalized around the same time they added+ hit% to the gear in game. right?