I do agree Templar is more “Paladin-like”. Templars literally are holy knights after all. The giant hammer nuke is cool, but I’ve always been someone who likes more subdued animations. I wasn’t hugely fond of the Final Verdict animation whenever that became the default choice, but it’s grown on me now to a point where I hardly notice the giant literally flipping light hammer.
The cool thing about Templar is that it feels more visceral and “hard” in a way—literally crafting the light into a weapon. Whereas Herald of the Sun uses light in a more magical way to burn and cauterize enemies and friends. I personally think the themes were captured a lot better than people give them credit for, but certainly there’s always room to improve, and everyone has their own opinions.
Well, this is by design. Blizzard made a handful of Hero Specs more passive and others more active on purpose. Some people prefer the new fancy ability to press, and others want something simple. Working as intended.
i mean then frankly if thats the intention, herald will never be in a position where it could be viable without killing DH. even then its still a solid 15% behind templar. im sorry but fully passive hero trees are dumb and frnakly thats why alot of them are underperforming compared to their peers
also the idea that we’re suggesting that templar is “active” when its legit just “do your rotation correctly and you contribute to the engine to press hol more” is extremely silly and shows a disconnect within the community
herald is just more passive than templar, but that doesnt mean templar isnt passive in itself.
I don’t think that’s true at all. Blizzard isn’t going to leave the more passive trees behind simply because they’re more passive. They’re Hero Talents. That would make no sense to leave any of them behind purposefully and kind of defeat the purpose of having real viable choice in this game.
And yeah I realize Templar isn’t overly an active spec, but I’m just engaging with the way you framed the conversation.
i mean sure, blizzard wont leave such a huge divide between hero trees. im just saying its more healthier for the spec in general to make herald have a reward to work towards. so it can actuallybenefit from synergies. like if we want to fix DH, legit just make dawnlight do more damager per spender casted on the target. thus making dh ticks make dawnlight do more damage.
but thats not a straight damage buff, thats actively reworking herald to be something else. which is a better option than flatly buffing it until it falls behind cause another templar synergy was found
that kinda makes you look silly tbh. cause it gives the impression that you think templar is somehow more active than herald. when in reality, both hero talents benefits from playing your rotation correctly in general, but templar has a engine that has a reward for playing correctly while herald just adds soft damage increases to your rotation.
it just silly to buff herald as passive as it is by a obscene amount without fixing its fundamental issues. thus giving it a high chance to fall behind again
Um. You literally said this below. What? Do you forget the words you put out into the world, or do you just change your mind on a whim when it works to your benefit? I never once said Templar was guitar hero mode for Ret. I just engaged with your literal framing of the way you view Herald.
By the way. I would rather eat nails than use Divine Hammer. I think the spell should be purged from the spec completely if you want my real and honest opinion. Especially if it’s really causing so many issues which I read about constantly on here.
because while both hero talents are passive, herald is still more passive in the sense that its just “ret +” hence why i said it. i didnt think i had to be more specific to describe how passive herald is compared to its counterpart, which mind you, is also very passive.
the concepts of “both hero trees are passive” and “templar has more synergies and has a engine” are both true. i didnt think i had to explain that
sure you are allowed to have that opinion, its true that divine hammer is legit carrying the spec rn due to its interaction with templar. i just dont like how alot of ret players want to nerf the spec first before exploring other options. also people here dont even talk about the actual issues of divine hammer, theyre talking about how it synergies more with templar instead of herald.
if you want to talk about actual divine hammer issues, then talk about oh uptime reliant it is, tlak about how its extension pushes ret to be more rng oriented and whether or not you highroll your various rng things will decide if you parse 99 or 95, talk about that divine hammer offers a bare minimum skill ceiling and thus a breath of fresh air to the spec instead of skill ceiling being the norm in general.
like it sucks that herald is bad, i understand where alot of you are coming from. but please understand that herald has no future as it is right now. buffing it wont fix its issues and nerfing divine hammer wont fix herald either. nerfing the spec as a whole cause you dont like how x doesnt interact with Y the same way it interacts with Z is silly and vendictive af
I mean you can have your opinion too. I just don’t think Blizzard is really THAT stupid to leave Herald so un-synergistic as you say. We are not game designers, we are players. We can tell them when something doesn’t feel good, but we aren’t always correct on the solution part.
Divine Hammer to me, does not raise the skill ceiling for Ret at all. It’s just another tacky maintenance buff. It is not hard to do it. It is annoying to do it. You might like it, and that’s fine, but Divine Hammer should be a talent CHOICE not a talent requirement as far as I’m concerned.
Frost DK has a talent called Breath of Sindragosa. Another maintenance style ability. I will also never use that spell even if it gave me 10 times more DPS. This is a video game after all. We are supposed to be enjoying ourselves. It is not a job. Blizzard has an obligation to make the game fun for everyone as much as they can, and they have the perfect avenue to do so with talent trees and hero talents. Which I shouldn’t have to remind you or anyone else that it is the intended purpose of bringing talent trees back to the game anyway—for player choice.
I didn’t say the actual visual were good, to my taste they aren’t.
I said
I’d have preferred if there was texture to it, either a pulsing effect or a bigger beam gradually getting smaller.
Or a smaller beam getting bigger (mimicking a sunrise, we’re the “herald of the sun”)
Is it bugged then? Because the talent says “While a dawnlight is active”
I remember first week of S1 having no trouble having nearly 100% uptime on dawnlight in raid fights.
Inquisitor’s Ire, Judge Jury+Executioner and Justicar’s Vengeance says “Hello.”
Agreed.
Again, agreed. However, the problem with this statement is that “fun” is a subjective term.
Trust me on this.
I absolutely love Templar Strikes (ask anybody on here) but Arahgon and Benmarch have politely explained to me in detail on why it’s not a feasible option over Crusading Strikes in the long run. And it’s no “fun” if your dps is eventually lagging behind others.
Oh yeah. There are definitely problems with the whole talent choice system please don’t get me wrong. I fear we got the “illusion of choice” once again, rather than a real effort to keep various choices in check as far as DPS goes (at least marginally so). Maybe that’s the price of the pace of development they are keeping with the game, making it harder to fine tune choices between each other (totally guessing). They have to balance so many specs, and I do not envy them.
Example. Why would anyone ever take Justicar’s Vengeance over Final Verdict? This one sticks out like a sore thumb. Not a choice at all really!
im positive that herald will be changed for the better in the near future, that being said i hope its actual changes instead of flat buffs.
and yet so many ret players absolute fail at doing it, its a skill ceiling in the lowest bar. which is fine i guess, i dont particularly like it. but its the only thing that changed ret in a fundamental way since the rework hence why its somewhat popular among more skilled rets. eventually it will fall off within the community and be disliked, just like breath of sindragosa.
yes, but the community at large needs to stop worrying about dps % gains in general in content where it doesnt matter. talent trees are for play choice and to give the illusion of getting stronger while you level up. but way to many people in lfr and heroic or m0 dungeons think they are forced to play things they dont like, while still neglecting to do their rotation properly.
no one is stopping you from not playing DH in content where it doesnt matter. im just reminding you that we shouldnt nerf or kneecap the spec cause we dont like how DH interacts with templar and not herald.
afaik it never lasted more than 8 seconds. thats def how it interacts now anyways.
i do want to point out to the court, that DF had templar strikes as a viable option all expansion. it just tww dumpsters it with radiant glory now since how is our filler.
anywho, i also want to remind the court that we’re back to cd stacking in a more cruddy way. bring back seraphim pls
I agree with pretty much everything you said really.
The one thing I have maybe a slightly dissenting opinion about is that Divine Hammer shouldn’t be so powerful that it’s practically the only thing keeping Ret damage on the map. That just seems like bad game design to me to put so much weight on 1 singular ability like that. Ret Paladins didn’t like Inquisition either (which was basically Rogue’s Slice and Dice). This is essentially how Divine Hammer feels to me. A reskinned Inquisition but repackaged as a spell that does damage now. Can’t fool me Blizzard! LOL
Nah. Templar actually feels good and it fills the Ret fantasy perfectly. Ret has always been about slower hard hitting abilities and HoL does that perfectly. That being said, Divine Hammers is the only thing I don’t like. It synergizes with Templar very well but I honestly would rather have them remove the ability or replace it with something more interesting.
I love the Herald buffs, but the biggest question is, are they enough to be competitive vs Templar.
I just wish Herald had another way to apply Dawnlight consistently outside CDs or atleast bring Dawnlight to Divine Toll aswell if they have to attached to CDs.
Like say Divine Toll granted the same buff,
Dawnlight - Casting Wake of Ashes or Divine Toll causes your next 2 Holy Power spending abilities to apply Dawnlight on your target.
Alternatively,
Aurora - attach Divine Purpose HP spenders places a Dawnlight on your Target. (Through Procs or Wake of Ashes).
I think Herald be much more competitive vs Templar no?.