Flapz dropping the hammer on him.
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Repeating the same fragmented sentences and then saying its self explanatory does not actually improve the ability to communicate what you are saying. You may want to quote in the context of the back and forth after reading what was being said. He is a 1600 player saying i need to be educated by him and my response he is not in a spot to educate someone that was 1700 higher than him last season.
I did explain what the difference is if you scroll up. Maybe quote that section instead of just repeating over and over when you havent actually read through the thread.
Lets actually break it down and compare with spammable cc in comparison. Clone was 6s vs sheep that is 8s. it was 75% duration of sheep and now its 100% the duration while maintaining its many benefits. The meta is sped up with reductions in certain cc to match the speed of the meta. You literally named off all the cc that is not like a spammable long duration cc. High winds also got a 50% buff this patch. So it is a longer duration in comparison to like cc AND highwinds got buffed. I think fear is busted too, they both should of got the same treatment as trap, sheep, kidney, hoj, blinding sleet, etc. Btw the overall duration of ccs in seconds in much lower. You cherry picked things that are longer but its not indicative of the state of total duration of cc in the game.
Free precog is pretty oppressive.
High winds is pretty oppressive, no conditions on cyclone like on Blackjack for Sap.
Wild attunement straight up busted for feral idk.
Cyclone baseline? Not too terrible if you don’t mind taking breaks. But since you can use it in a CC chain it can still be crazy strong.
Don’t think it needs cut but would like to see all the augments cut down or pruned.
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What about literally extrapolating on it directly after?
Perhaps take your own advice and
I get your point, experience does play a role sometimes but it’s not always the be all end all. I’d also not necessarily quite shuffle xp compared to 3’s lol.
Oh I read it, I assure you. But just saying “compared to others it’s now longer” isn’t the answer I’m looking for. Maybe I’m not being clear enough.
Please do.
Ok but sheep is used drastically different than clone. My point is, fast paced metas existed while clone was 6s prior and no one complained. You say that some cc’s were lowered to match the pace but there are some that were increased. In fact, there are quite literally more than ones that decreased.
Bash, rake, incap roar, clone, chaos nova, imprison, monk incap, song, and sweep, db, warrior fear, cheap, garrote, gouge, chastise, priest fear, silence, lasso, cap totem, lock fear, infernal stun, coil, strangulate, etc. All increased relative to last season if I recall.
Things like hoj, kidney, blinding sleet were barely lowered by the way (compared to last season). Like overall since the dawn of WoW sure but…
I agree high winds is strong. That in conjunction with clone is really good but to simply say I cherry picked irrelevant examples is kind of erroneous. Cc outside of niche plays wasn’t changed THAT much. I think wind shear is the biggest L to be honest.
Clone is drastically different than sheep? Is it? They both are used as a spammable cc on healer or to peal? Cyclone has the added benefit of not being dispellable and preventing heals. Its just significantly better and thats probably why is was always so much shorter than sheep. Now its the same duration sheep with 6s highwinds added to it. Sheep was 6.8 s to 6s now, thats about a 12% reduction in the length of sheep compared to last season, same with hunter trap. Cyclone was 5.1s last season is now 6s. Thats a nearly 18% increase in the duration of clone. When youre talking about relative spammable cc. Sheep went down 12% while clone went up 18% and the meta speed increased. You balance druids are trying to make the argument that clone is the same thats its always been. The fact is that relative to the meta its way stronger than similar cc and 6s highwinds added to it.
I will make this simple for you. I am a 0 CR player because I haven’t stepped foot in the arena in two expansions and my understanding of Cyclone and other talents that augment it are apparently greater than yours. So tell us how Cyclone is “obnoxious bro” without touching precog or high winds.
Youre making the argument pretty easily you just admitted you dont know anything because you havent played the game yet youre on here saying other people need to be educated. oooookay. The, “havent stepped in arena.” yet has a challenger ach for the last 6 seasons straight. You might want to read the actual discussion to see that I already made the point, but you keep sticking to the same low IQ statement though, “bro.”
Yes. Clone is used on dps significantly more than sheep is in a vastly different way. Obviously both can be used on healers and in that regard, they’re both the same length now. That doesn’t change the fact that clone is how it is because it gets more use on dps than it does heals which is the opposite of sheep.
strong text
I don’t necessarily think comparing the two spells in a vacuum is fair. I agree that clone is the best spammable cc because it’s the most versatile however it’s not like sheep doesn’t have some benefits.
—it has a longer range
—it can be cast while blinking to reach los (pending talent)
—it’s on one of three schools that all have cc options
—it can be “re’d” without gap because you can sheep a sheep (or anything other than clone for that matter). You can’t clone into a clone.
Surely you’d agree that if Druids had sheep and mages had clone, it would be arguably the biggest balance swap in history. They’re appropriate for their respective kits.
High winds isn’t baseline though (like shimmer) and shouldn’t be used when discussing this. I mean to be fair, the guy you were arguing with said this as well and he’s right in that regard. People tend to lump them all together but, it’s misleading.
I understand all your explanations of the cc durations, I assure you. And since you already said fear is also busted I guess I can’t say much. Blizz explicitly said they wanted casted cc to be meaningful. They simply put them at AL 6s. They all have strengths and weaknesses when compared on their respective class. I agree in a vacuum clone is the best but I don’t necessarily think it being 6s alone is detrimental to the meta health because it’s always been that way in fast metas as well. I understand some other cc is lower and it changed the meta but even relatively speaking, casted cc is still just as punishing. Sheep got a little less punishing but let’s be real, most mages unless playing RMX aren’t sheeping anymore anyway lol.
If clone was nerfed to 5s even I don’t think it’d change much to be honest. That’s kind of my point. DHs stun fear incap or priest stun silence fear or any traditional combos like that are all longer than last season. It’s not like everyone’s cc chains got shorter while boomy is over here playing a totally different game. In fact, rootbeam is not only less reliable than it ever has been, it’s also shorter now as well. Locks still stun coil fear, hoj blind is about the same, etc.
Youre admitting clone is the best cc in the game.
Was it always the best cc in the game? Id argue definitely not.
The original argument from the challenger player is that cyclone is the same as its always been. It went from a solid cc to the best cc in the game in a patch. This is what I mean relative to the meta.
You cant remove a part of the argument about cyclone that makes it great which is highwinds. If you removed highwinds from the game would clone be as good? The answer is that no it would not be especially when highwinds is meta, its not like its not used. I like the idea of high winds so id rather just see fear and clone come in to line with other cc reductions, just 1s off. Druid is taking nerfs on Tuesday and that will make clone not as big of an issue since abilities do not excist in a vacuum. I actually thought boomie dmg was fine it was cyclone that is the issue. Blizz decided they have too much dmg and nerfed that instead.
I have admitted nothing other than I haven’t played arena in 2 expansions (on this character). I did hop into RSS on my BM Hunter for 6 games about a month ago if you want to go check-pvp that. If you are seeing challenger achievements on me for the last 6 seasons it is because I FC RBG’s up to 1800 for the mount. If you saw one for me from last season then you check-pvp’d the wrong guy. Now that is out in the open, tell me how Clone is Obnoxious.
Highwinds is obnoxious bro. That is one of the points that I have been trying to get you to understand.
Basically what I read is your dont know crap like I said. Why are you even int he forums arguing when you have no clue on the current state of the game? But even though you have absolutely zilch xp im sure youd be rank 1 if you just played the game right. lmao gtfo
For its main purpose of peels and hp freeze, yea. It most certainly was. It may not have been better than poly for like… boomy rogue as opposed to RMX or something but that’s where mage/poly excel at. Easier to land cc that’s easily chained off of. It’s really hard to say “best” without context. Personally, I’d take clone over any other casted cc hands down. I would said the same years ago too.
I understand what relative means. Again, this is assuming it wasn’t always anyway and something has to be the “best” right? Saying “in a patch” adds no layer to the discussion. It’s like certain specs dropping from S to A tier or something.
I mean, sure you can. only boomy uses high winds. I’m not sure if the other specs even have it available still do they? Regardless that’s a totally nonsensical argument. Do you have an issue with clone when rdruids or feral use it?
I mean ok, there. Admit it’s just your opinion on the problem. That’s fine. I think it’s an interesting talent too but it is separate.
And again man with the cc reductions… only some cc was reduced. More went up from last season than reduced and in the realm of casted spammable cc only ONE was adjusted to be in line with blizz not wanting longer than 6s. Why are you stuck on the fact that clone and fear also need lowered because poly was? It was brought in line. Duration wise. It’s like seeing destro nerfed and not demo and aff and saying the other two need nerfed just because destro did. It’s weird.
The boomy nerfs are…. Weird. It lowered resource gen which won’t matter because unless you build a certain way, you over cap anyway and they randomly nerd goldrinn to basically what it was before the original buff.
And yeah 10% slower clone isn’t gonna matter at all.
Youve said cyclone is the best cc in the game without considering highwinds. Its the best without a component that makes it really powerful in the current meta. So with this component it is completely broken? Thanks for making my point.
High winds has been around for almost 3 years. You telling me clone with high winds wasn’t the best back then but suddenly is now because sheep alone is shorter?
Fried bro.
You’re free to think clone is strong or too strong or whatever but the reasoning that it’s only like that because it’s “relative strength” next to sheep is what it is crazy. All casted spammable cc is the same duration. All. They all have pros. All have cons.
The thread won’t go anywhere else. If your “point” is that clone is strong then… yeah. It has been for 15 years.
Next.
Highwinds just got a 50% buff, you said cyclone was the best cc in the game before highwinds was meta. Highwinds existed but nobody used it. You helped further make my point which is that the ability is too strong. I actually baited you into saying cyclone was the strongest in the past by saying it wasnt just because I knew youd argue the opposite. You activated the trap card and further made the point for me. 
Yeah, nice try but I’ve said that to literally anyone at any time lol. You’re not smart enough to manipulate my discussion man. Sorry.
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yet somehow I got you to admit exactly what my point is, that cyclone is the best cc in the game.
Id argue is doesn’t take a very smart person to use a very simple argumentative tactic lol.
And yet you still failed at it. Do with that info what you will.
See, and hears another example. You didn’t “get me” to do anything. I’ve said forever that clone is the best cc in the game. Your failure to realize that alone doesn’t warrant a change isn’t my fault. You just can’t comprehend it.
Imagine it gets nerfed. Then what’s the best in your eyes, fear? So now that fear is the best does it need nerfed? Ok so nerf it. Now what’s best? Poly? Guess what…
See where this is going? Something is always the best. Especially when talking in a vacuum which is all you seem capable of doing.
Lol, you’re hilarious. Change the goal post after you get dunked on.
If I got you to agree to the original point but using a simple tactic. I would not call that fail, I’d say it worked pretty effortlessly. Your reputation on the forums for blindly defending balance druids no matter what made it easy to lure you into a no-win argument. Now that you been sonned, your rebuttal is, “you’re not smart enough,” and “you failed.” 