Well, actually there seems to be SOME push to reclaim the ruins of Lordaeron. Not so much rebuilding the Kingdom (as everyone assumed the Menethil line had ended), but HUMANS of Lordaeron wanted those lands back (hence both the presence of the Scarlet’s and the Argent’s in those regions). HUMANITY still believes they can reclaim those lands.
However, the population and lands of Lordaeron are so decimated that honestly just about the ONLY people that could even hope to make those lands fertile again in a reasonable amount of time are the Kaldorei (as LIFE magic seems to be pretty potent at removing DEATH magic corruption). On top of this, for MOST of Humanity, the caviat of reclaiming those lands came with the expectation of pushing the Forsaken OUT of them. Hell, BtS is VERY explicit on how MOST of Humanity still sees the Forsaken (the majority of them STILL perceive them as Scourge, and a growing minority hate them for what they’ve done as Forsaken).
Honestly, at this point, with Calia not being aware of ANY of this Forsaken reality … she’s liable to bring them into some VERY dangerous situations.
Well yes there seems to be a consistent theme of the living wanting Lordaeron back, from the monument to Terenas that the living built to the crusades that the living have long carried out on undead in the area
But my point is that the Forsaken themselves have displayed no desire to reforge the kingdom
Calia reclaiming Lordaeron as ruler of a living faction would be far more understandable, though I doubt that’s a possibility now
But the Forsaken suddenly deciding to reforge the kingdom? Despite the fact that for years they’ve held the bulk of the old kingdom’s lands including its old seat of power and yet did not reforge it of their own volition? That seems a touch bonkers to me
A little part of me hopes that the current situation with Voss is just her trying to plan for an “Out”, but through accepting more responsibility over the Forsaken for what she believes as the SHORT TERM … it will ultimately result in her taking responsibility in the LONG TERM (maybe not solo, but certainly shaking her loose of the notion that Calia is a solution for ALL “Forsaken”). She seems to be the type to accept responsibility only when she feels forced to.
Honestly, the part of me that IS hopeful that that is the route that Blizzard is going is what they deliberately had Calia’s first words to Voss be. A First Impression is important, and for Calia to be apparently SO out of the loop to both Voss’s and the Forsaken’s reality that her first words to Voss were reminiscing about Voss’s Father … that is one HELL of a Warning Signal. We’ll have to wait and see if THAT bit of dialogue makes it into live (or if its intentional by Blizz), but if it does (and is) … for Calia to not understand what Benedictus Voss (a HIGH Cleric of the Scarlet Crusade) represents to Voss and the Forsaken … she is VERY Dangerous for most of them.
I’m of half a mind to assume that Calia’s blatant tone-deaf insult to Voss-- of praising Voss’s father she was forced to murder to save herself-- was simply the Quest Writers realizing Calia has nothing in common with the rest of the Forsaken, so the only conversational starter she possesses, is,
“Hey I remember you, from the before times? Remember the before times when things were good?”
More evidence she’s unqualified to lead anyone, and considering her entire position is “I’m better than you, let me help you” I’d rather an Orc lead the Forsaken.
Honestly, I expect still what I always sort of expected with Calia. She is going to end up with a Undead Alliance AR built around that rift in identity that was portrayed in BtS (that was the ENTIRE reason for that book, beyond showing Sylvie MAY have been on her same character arc from “EoN”; which it turns out she apparently was).
Simply put, there are likely those undead that would still prefer to identify as who they were in life. There are those that now have moved on from those identities to more strongly adopt their new Forsaken selves. There are also likely many on a spectrum somewhere in the middle. What each Undead decides (either to go back to being Calia’s people, and part of the Alliance), or remaining Forsaken and part of the Horde (the faction that DID accept them in their darkest times) … is up to them (but at least there is an interesting story to explore there).
Voss … I have the feeling … will fall on the Forsaken side of the fence in the end. However, just like with the Undead NEs … I don’t expect any sort of resolution on this issue until AT EARLIEST 8.3.5.
There is no Kingdom of Lordaeron in the same of the Kingdom of Kul Tiras or Stormwind, but Lordaeron exists in the collective conscious of the Forsaken all the same. The Forsaken profess ownership of their territories understanding that it is still Lordaeron.
And no, I’m not implying that Calia couldn’t have reached out. I’m implying that just because she could, doesn’t mean that she should. You’d have to be flippantly ignorant to the political climate between the Forsaken and living humans to think that making any overtures would have been productive.
Your standards for what constitutes a kingdom or a nation do not make sense.
I was speaking more to the idea of an “Alliance encroachment”. Whether or not it’s right to prop them up as leadership is another consideration, but I’m attacking the particular point that the Forsaken have always allowed undead that were formerly Alliance.
It’s not as if they don’t have qualifications. Calia says she’s had no training but I’m sure that’s a poor construction on the part of the writers. The children of royalty are typically exposed to that sort of thing, formally or informally.
I know you are joking, but… that reminds me, Nazgrim would actually be a good leader for the Forsaken if he leaves the Ebon Blade. He has a history that seems in line with current Forsaken problems: Following an evil Warchief until the end, and has had years to ruminate on that choice, and the line between Duty and Honor. He is undead now, and could have an interesting perspective on undeath with being raised when he was not wanting to.
He could be a good choice for leading the Forsaken closer into the Horde… better than Calia.
Upon further investigation, to act as if Lordaeron does not exist simply because the Kingdom fell is a pretty asinine assertion.
You need to first define whether you’re talking about the kingdom at its height before the end of the Third War, or the territories still referred to as “Lordaeron” and the population that still resides within.
The first line of the Forsaken article on WoWPedia:
The undead Forsaken […] are a race and a faction of intelligent undead who broke away from the Scourge and took conrol of much of the kingdom of Lordaeron.
Throughout the article on the Forsaken, as their story develops and their movement through the territory is described, the name “Lordaeron” appears numerous times.
Whether it’s a kingdom like Stormwind, or a collection of territories occupied by former members of a ruined kingdom, the Forsaken hold claim over Lordaeron and have defended it doggedly. If the Forsaken that were once Lordaeronian themselves have a right to say it belongs to them, and not the Alliance, then the same can be said for Forsaken that were once Lordaeronian, and were Lordaeronian royalty.
To say nothing about the Kingdom of Stromgarde.
Through the Death Knight campaign, we saw a Stromgarde that was being ruled by Forsaken that retained their cultural identity as Stromic and a dead royal whose claim was made and recognized for the throne.
If the same cannot be done for Calia, please explain why.
This.
I merely play the game and read forums n YouTube stuff. Rarely I trouble myself with books cause I remember reading one and being thoroughly disappointed.
All I know about Calia is from what I read here and the impression I have from it is. She is, after no development whatsoever suddenly thrown into the plot with a possible major role, and the only few actions she has done from what I read are better labeled as naive, stupid, selfish and arrogant.
Her only good quality seems to be she was lucky, lucky to be light raised(wtf?) and thus team Anduin which in modern wow is team good&pure.
Honestly, I wish I could skip bringing religion to the topic (which I respect), but I’ll say, Calia feels like I opened Wow just to get an pink Bible tucked into my mouth.
Also the Forsaken were not just Sylvanas, if I remember correctly before Cata there were quests that introduced you to the RAS, to the military and other diverse parts of Forsaken society. The after Cata everything began revolting around this new weird Sylv.
That for game practicity Undead are only available as "humans"doesnt mean the Forsaken are solely humans. They are conformed by differet victims of the Scourge (wraith, gargoyles, stitches and also elves.
Banshees are originally tortured spirits of elves, which Sylvanas belongs to, difference is She was able to recover and posses her own body. And the fact that she naturally asummed leadership (and bla bla).
So culturally, she is absolutely no outsider, but a very good representation of Forsaken origins (at least the Pre suicide sylvanas).
The RAS is a bad example, because with the sole exception of Putress, they’ve always been the group closest to Sylvanas. They engineered the blight under her oversight through years of testing on captured civilians, various animals, and members of the Horde. It got bad enough that multiple senior members outright left, joining the Argent Crusade with hopes of using their alchemy to either combat the Scourge or heal regions still tainted by them.
Hopefully the developments with Calia are purely to set up her taking a part of the race as Lightforged Undead for the Alliance, rather than leading the Forsaken for the Horde.
No, they understand that it was once the kingdom of Lordaeron. They don’t ever actively identify it as still being “Lordaeron”
Do you have any evidence of Forsaken ever actively referring to it as the nation of Lordaeron?
There are multiple occasions of Forsaken reaching out to their living counterparts. Is you assertion that the Forsaken had some sort of innate hatred for the living? Because Forsaken have tried to initiate contact with the living in the past and only when outright rejected did they turn on them - they did display outright disdain for extremist elements that sought to purge them but according to you Calia hardly falls into that category
So you’re asserting that the name Menethil is soo important to the Forsaken…yet they would have attacked Calia without a thought because she was living? Despite her being a Menethil and despite members of the Forsaken attempting to restore previous relationships from their lifetime? You need to pick one
In what capacity? I struggle to understand your confusion
Quel’thalas: Never actually fell, was not entirely wiped out, retained its leadership and capital city, continued on as a nation to this day
Lordaeron: Actually fell, was entirely wiped out, did not retain its leadership nor capital city, did not continue on as a nation
It’s…pretty straightforward?
No, you were attacking the idea of Calia not understanding the Forsaken plight - I’ll refresh your memory
What you were responding to:
Your response:
So, I don’t know how you’re trying to twist it? Fact is that those fresh Forsaken probably don’t know the depths of what those raised by Arthas experienced - but like I said they weren’t being thrust into positions of power either
It’s cool for freshly raised Forsaken to join the ranks and learn to live alongside their undead brethren - what’s not cool is freshly raised undead feeling that they understand what those who were there from the beginning experienced and thinking that they can lead them
A la -
Calia:“The Forsaken lost their queen. For many, it’s the second time they’ve been abandoned. They feel adrift. Alone.”
Derek:“Calia, I know the pain they suffer. The hopelessness. You must do something for them.” Calia:“We will, Derek. Together.”
And what, pray tell, could she have learned in her time alive that would prepare her for the struggles and complexities of an undead nation?
You’re literally just making stuff up now because you feel like that’s how it should be, I’d recommend you look up Calia’s actual lore. Lordaeron was clearly a nation where males were groomed for positions of leadership, not females. Arthas was the heir apparent despite being the younger sibling - Calia was actually just supposed to be married off in an arranged marriage to strengthen political bonds but she ended up eloping with a commoner
So no, it’s not “poor construction”, it’s her story. Her father focused his attention on Arthas and not her - that’s her lore
I just…what? Am I supposed to take WoWPedia as anything meaningful? That’s third party stuff yo
And yes they used to be the lands of Lordaeron but Lordaeron fell, like how are you not getting that?
“Under their new queen’s guidance, the independent undead—known as Forsaken—established the Undercity beneath the ruins of Lordaeron.”
"To further her own goals and protect her budding nation, Sylvanas set out to forge alliances. "
"The usurpers were eventually slain and the Forsaken capital was restored, but the debacle created suspicion among the Horde regarding Sylvanas’ ability to lead and ensure the loyalty of the Forsaken."
“Now, these free-willed undead fortify their holdings around the Undercity as they ready themselves for the deadly future they believe is inevitable.”
“During the Third War, the once-glorious capital of Lordaeron, Capital City, was decimated by a Scourge army under the command of Prince Arthas Menethil”
“Years later, Queen Sylvanas and her renegade undead, known as the Forsaken, claimed the Undercity as their own and completed the winding network of catacombs and crypts that the Scourge had begun”
^ Excerpts from the Undead page that Blizz wrote
Note the language and the way things are spoken of; “the independent undead - known as Forsaken” - “beneath the ruins of Lordaeron” - “protect her budding nation” - “Forsaken capital was restored” - "these free-willed undead fortify their holdings - “once-glorious capital of Lordaeron, Capital City, was decimated by the scourge” - “Queen Sylvanas and her renegade undead, known as Forsaken, claimed the Undercity as their own”
The Forsaken have long been portrayed as their own peoples and nation separate from the kingdom of Lordaeron of the past - Blizz even literally refer to them as a “budding nation”
Yes, because those lands used to belong to the kingdom of Lordaeron and whoever wrote that article felt it easier to refer to them as that. In any case, recognizing the history of a nation in a particular place doesn’t equate to said nation still being active
Yes, but Lordaeron does not exist. That’s the point, Calia has claim to a throne that outright doesn’t exist
I…because the Forsaken did not retain their cultural identity as Lordaeronian after the kingdoms fall? I don’t know how to highlight that any more to you - they don’t refer to themselves as Lordaeronian, they refer to themselves as Forsaken - they don’t even speak common anymore, they speak gutterspeak and actively adopted gutterspeak as their official language despite still knowing common - their architecture doesn’t mirror that of old Lordaeron, they’ve created their own Gothic style - they’ve made no attempts to rebuild the ruined capital of Lordaeron despite having lived beneath it for over a decade and the list goes on
Like how far removed do they have to be from their roots in Lordaeron for you to think “maybe they aren’t Lordaeronian anymore”? Because literally the only argument for them still being anything akin to citizens of Lordaeron is the fact that once upon a time they were - while everything else points to them having morphed into their own distinct nation and peoples who have no reason to suddenly bow to the heir of a dead throne
Quests in classic say that the Forsaken actually couldn’t speak Common when they tried after regaining their free will. Gutterspeak wasn’t a language they invented, it was what their language degraded into.
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says:“Long ago this land comprised the northern kingdoms of Lordaeron, ruled by King Terenas Menethil.”
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says:“Lordaeron belongs to the Forsaken - always and forever.”
She’s pretty clearly not referring to her nation of Forsaken as the kingdom of Lordaeron - she’s referring to the lands that were once Lordaeron and how they belong to the Forsaken
She literally refers to the kingdom of Lordaeron as a thing of the past
Gutterspeak is expanded upon in the World of Warcraft Battle Chest Guide
It’s not just “degraded common” it’s a language that existed before the Forsaken did and was often used by figures of the underworld as a means to hold private conversations - think gypsy’s and Romani
Perhaps some Forsaken can’t and that’s what the classic quests were highlighting, but BtS confirmed that Forsaken generally can speak and understand common but choose not to