Breath of Sindragosa


Please just make Obliteration competitive again.


How about you actually make other talents viable? Investing all these resources into fixing a talent that probably needs to be scrapped anyway and ignoring all the other underperforming talents isnt a good way to go about this.

(Haven) #24

As somone who has mained Frost through the good and bad days, please stop pushing BoS as the main viable spec. I am so sick of it. Give us a boost for other options. I already dread just logging on to just be a stupid mentos commercial.

(Apparition) #25

I think the consensus is the following sorry for the caps but it seems that some dev’s need 4 inch think bifocals to see issues:




(Krissignacia) #26

ive been saying for awile now the HB with Rime needs to gen runes. if oblit with km that costs 1 rune and still gen the same RP then why cant HB with Rime

obliteration with pof is bad and pof being 15 sec now is bad
and with the back and forth you dont have much time busting out oblits

so ive been saying make oblit a passive that changes how km and oblit work to test run it.

km doing more damage by scaling with you highest secondary stat and same with oblit
making FS always crit
really 100 obliteration needs a overhaul

mastery adding a thing for oblit
really tho what we really want is oblit doing all frost damage and same with scourge with full shadow with unholy and while they have a talent for scourge to full shadow at range it would be nice to have the full shadow baseline while the talent makes it ranged

(Banterdk) #27

Hi Sigma, glad to see you are taking a look at Frost’s resource issues & Breath of Sindragosa (Breath). I appreciate you taking the time to elaborate on your design decisions and your approach on these issues.

I have a couple follow up questions regarding things that were seemingly overlooked when writing your post, but were likely key discussion/tuning considerations regarding the changes Frost DK’s can look forward to in 8.2:

RP Cost/tick
Your first iteration had a change that you failed to mention in your post, the change of the Runic Power cost per tick (RP/s). With the much higher Runic Empowerment proc chance (RE%), I initially assumed that the 18RP/s was a placeholder cost, and that you would further analyse later what the cost should be (since players had to revise what talents to take & what essences to use, both of which changing the total resource income during Breath).

In the current iteration, it now has no RE% bonus (now 2% per RP), and a cost of 16RP/s instead of 18RP/s.

Question: If the goal of the current iteration is to solely give the player resources upon activating and upon dropping Breath (periods that have been infamously known for downtime due to pooling/resource starvation), why was the RP cost also changed? Was it also possible for Frost to have a reduced RP cost, but to keep a RE% bonus?

My guess is that the RE% chance is coupled with the RP cost to calculate an average uptime of Breath based on average rune return (with 16 being the number that free’s up GCD’s for Rime, FFury etc), but I would love to hear your approach/any other considerations you had when deciding upon the resource cost per tick.

+0 RP spells/GCD’s during breath
Another issue that the former iteration of Breath that was not mentioned is using a GCD to cast a spell that generated no RP/spent no runes quickly resulted in losing Breath. The solution we realised was quite unfortunate, player’s would need to press Obliterate (+20RP) for basically every GCD during Breath in order to maintain it; some call this GCD locking. Another solution was to simply decrease the player’s GCD through Haste, but this led to an overall damage decrease and was not ideal (playtesting & preliminary theorycrafting has led us to conclude that high Mastery/Crit provides the highest DPS throughput).

Either way, this scenario was unfortunate, as it was DPS increase to not spend Rime Procs, not press Frostwyrm’s Fury during Breath, and not take Frostscythe for AoE scenarios. Oddly enough, this actually slightly opened up the talent tree (e.g. Gathering Storm was looking quite nice/worked well with the prior iteration with 3x Frozen Tempest).

However, the issue described here is largely remedied with the reduced RP cost (since there is much more leeway regarding GCD spending with the reduced RP cost).

Question: It is fair to say that one of the core issues with the 18RP/s Breath will be +0RP GCD’s becoming a damage loss (since they directly result in dropping Breath), and would result in the behaviour of only ever casting Obliterate during Breath. What role did this issue cause, if at all, when you were re-iterating upon Breath?


Breath of Sindragosa can die in a fire. The gameplay style feels awful. It’s one of several major changes that drove me to ESO during Legion and BfA. Channeled abilities are one thing I don’t like about casters, and now you’ve brought that un-fun playstyle to what used to be one of the specs I enjoyed the most over the years (until the Legion pre-patch ruined it).

/logs on Argonian 2h DK from ESO
/casts Fiery Breath IV on Breath of Singragosa and melts it out of existence.


obliteration buff please


I´ve been playing Wow since the end of Wrath. Im not always mained a DK, but by far it’s my favorite class. This is the first time that I feel the need to come to the forums and beg to you: Please, do a complete revamp in BoS, or buff obliteration. Please. I dont mind frost dk suffering from the gcds, I really dont mind the unholy and blood nerfs (but yeah, you should look at unholy single target pve dps and the blood mitigations) but please!!! Fix this!!


Is there a reason the other talents in the 100 row aren’t getting any attention to better compete with Breath of Sindragosa? Is it not against your own design philosophies to further buff a talent that is already making the other options obsolete?

Is it out of the question to move some talents around and balance accordingly? Some insight on why requests to buff competing talents have been largely ignored would be nice.

(Ravatin) #32

One thing that will help is remove the limit of 3 runes regeneration and make it 6 it will help all dks.

(Krissignacia) #33

I’ve been told that’s bad thing to do

(Ravatin) #34

For frost it can help with the down time before, after, and during breath. I can see how it can GCD lock you, but I would rather have that over just waiting to do something.

(Krissignacia) #35

I know people only tell me it’s was done in wrath. If Runic emp refreshes all runes on cooldown instead of 1 would help


You guys are doing so much work rebalancing the spec around this talent, which I believe is part of the problem. It’s a talent. It shouldn’t be causing this much issue with the spec or feel this mandatory. It should be something we can swap out of without the class feeling like its falling apart. If you are going to balance the spec around the talent, then make it base line. Otherwise, remove the talent and redo the spec. BoS is insanely polarizing right now, and one talent shouldn’t be causing this much of a problem.

(Seliria) #37

I agree with Validorious. Players who choose to take something other than BoS deserve to also do good damage and feel good about their playstyle.

It’s the same basic problem as Spirit Bomb, a talent that is OP relative to its row is serving as a crutch propping up a spec that without it would be seen as clearly unreasonably weak, which feels bad to people who don’t like that talent’s playstyle or just haven’t done the research to know that picking something else is making them weaker than they should be.

Excessively strong talents on specs that are already reasonably powerful without them probably get noticed faster and nerfed as they deserve. (Unless you nerf the whole spec instead, which would then convert that one talent into a crutch talent even if it wasn’t one already. So don’t do that, please.)

It shouldn’t have to be players’ job to research which talents will let them be effective – it should be designers’ job to make specs effective with ANY talent. If you see lots of players of some class telling each other “You shouldn’t take X talent”, that should be a red flag, unless you have really solid reason to believe those players are just wrong and underrating that talent.

P.S. Also like Spirit Bomb, BoS is a rotation changer (although in a different way). Not all rotation changers are bad, but IMO they should be watched extra carefully to keep them from becoming mandatory because they have a higher than normal risk of being anti-fun to a significant percentage of players. Maybe BoS would be healthier if it just spent all your RP immediately on cast and had a fixed duration based on how much that was? It could still have some pooling issues but at least what you did while it was running would be more normal and not “must feed BoS”. Even that hypothetical version should leave players free to pick something else if they’d rather, though.

(Vahrok) #38

Please never make it baseline. I hate its playstyle so freaking much. Everyone in PvP knows the second you use it to CC you or just up and walk away for 4 seconds. Don’t force me to use it. Remove it or fix it. On top of that make the other two options viable.

Also a class that is built around build up should have that build up be rewarded not punished. If I have to get stacks of buff and debuffs, procs on hit, and resource pool just to deal damage (which requires a poorly mobile class to be on target regularly), that damage should do more than someone hitting a single button instantly.

Slow juggernaut that hurts when he catches you =/= fast slashing build up when he gets there for sub par damage if you allow him to stay on you.

Also when you give us an instantanious big damage it’s either on a 3-5 min CD or still requires a charge build up ala Cold Heart and a sacrifice of our best way to keep people from up and walking away from us. And even then you nerf it in PvP.

Edit: If anything needs to be baseline it’s Frostwyrm’s Fury.


The issue is that they are already treating BoS like a baseline ability. Pretty much every change the spec has gotten since 8.0 dropped has been because of BoS. If they are going to balance the class around a talent, that talent needs to become a core part of the kit and be replaced with something that gives us options.


I’d like to start by saying that I’m posting this from a character I created specifically for US forums. My main character is Bicepspump on the EU server Kazzak. I’m also the guide writer of the wowhead frost and unholy guides, as well as being an active theorycrafter.

I’d just like to say that I think it’s unfair that Blizzard is getting hate for these changes. People seem to be oblivious to the fact the Breath of Sindragosa playstyle has been plagued with a ridiculous amount of downtime. These changes are made to fix how the spec plays, not to buff the damage of the spec or increase the utility.

It’s important to realise this, instead of going on brigades about our damage (simply an issue of tuning), or about the power of different talents (again, a matter of tuning). These changes make the spec play so much better and I’m very thankful that they’ve been made. I’m looking forward to playing Frost in 8.2 and enjoying the playstyle that it’ll bring!

(Vahrok) #41

Well that makes one of us. Enjoy unfun and only option breath rework.