Breath of Sindragosa


(Sigma) #1

Taking a moment to give some background and thinking on the various changes to Breath of Sindragosa so far this PTR:

We agreed with common feedback that Frost DK, overall, had too high a portion of open GCDs in a steady-state rotation. When this happens, it’s generally a problem with a spec’s resource economy, and the baseline buffs to Runic Empowerment and Frost Fever resource generation were meant to address it.

But Breath of Sindragosa poses a further problem. A Breath that spends (for example) 300 Runic Power is, in a single button press, removing 12 Frost Strikes from the future. In other words, every 2 minutes, it creates 11 open GCDs that otherwise wouldn’t have been there, which is a huge amount. Across all classes, we try to keep an eye on variations in rotation pacing caused by talents—including cases where a talent causes a large deviation in resource economy or GCD utilization—and Breath is a big outlier. And, in all this, we’d prefer to preserve Breath’s signature resource-drain mechanic.

The first solution, giving increased Runic Empowerment proc chance during Breath, did return resources to the rotation, and did so during Breath. While this correctly targeted the talent (Breath was draining resources, so Breath should put some back in order to mitigate the pacing problems), it was the wrong time to give back resources. Even though Breath itself sucks resources away, players shift all possible resources into Breath, because this is the clear way to optimize the use of the talent. Resources can be shifted into the Breath window using ERW, Horn, and simple pooling, with the result that adding more during Breath itself actually overfills it.

So the goal of the current change—Breath returns Runes at the start and end—is to make the Breath talent add resources, but to do so outside the Breath window. Even the Runes at the start are effectively “outside” the Breath window, because they counteract 2 Runes’ worth of pooling that otherwise had to be done to play Breath optimally.

As always, changes are subject to further revision, but this might give some insight into the process for making surgical changes to address specific problems.


#3

You should just make Breath replace Frost Strike and make it add runes during the duration so we could spam Obliterate during it’s duration. /problemsolved


(Shríke) #4

Breath has been a problematic talent for YEARS, it only really worked out in legion because of A. how nighthold bosses worked, and B. Legendaries. You guys need to go back, look at Antorus with how that set worked and how that game play was for Frost and try to bring that back because honestly, having a 2min CD and doing crap damage between that is not fun. You guys keep trying to buff around a bad talent, when obliteration and icecap are the ones that truly need help to make this class better. Seriously go look at Antorus frost, it was a much better place. Also another thing, Pillar of Frost having a weird timing with breath and rune makes it awkward to hold things, so just make PoF 30secs CD. Also while im posting, 8min army of the dead; still stupid.

changed what char i was posting on


(Ilkoland) #5

Speaking for my own part, rather than trying to fix the Breath rotation so that it’s less empty, I’d much rather see you buffing alternative talent builds so that they’re even remotely viable and I can dispense with Breath entirely. That way the people who actually enjoy the Breath rotation as it is can play that way and us others who’ve preferred previous styles of Frost DK can take a talent build more similar to that without feeling punished by painfully low performance.


(Shríke) #6

the problem is when too much of the primary dmg source is on breath, and everything hits like nothing, thats what makes me shake my head at these guys.


(Krissignacia) #7

Maybe it’s time to replace breath. You’ve tired to redesign and tweek it all over.

And when people can out run us oh wait we got ww oh wait can’t do anything during it ruh roh raggy. didn’t have the moment problem in wod

Ya’ll do everything as minimal as possible for this class


(Shríke) #8

They’d probably know that if one of them ever bothered to play their game.


(Shríke) #9

Another note, these problems were frost were all very much reported and told to the devs, since BfA Beta. Any kind of tuning pass or look over should of told you guys (the devs) that obliteration and icecap are underwhelming, not good at all, and that our resources were in such disarray, not to mention having two 2min CDs and a pillar of frost not even sorta lining up with them. Shouldn’t have to wait another 15sec to hit our 2min optimally.


(Ghannön) #10

A step in the right direction. Another little step would be to add a RP gain whenever a Rime proc was used. Would allow us to use our Rime procs w/o fear of falling behind on the RP drain during Breath…


(Pinkiedrood) #11

Breath of Sindragosa is the sole reason I dropped playing Frost DK, the whole spec is completely weighted towards BoS and it’s a very limiting factor in my enjoyment.

I don’t mind one top tier talent being a touch better than the others, but BoS is the ONLY competitive DPS option, and I find it a very frustrating ability that I never feel any positive rewards from.


(Doomgard) #12

I disagree wholeheartedly

some prefer that playstyle and others (like myself) do not, i dont want the HB spam of MoP and i dont want the OB-OB-FS-OB-FS-FS rinse repeat style of antorus both to me have the worst player engagement of any spec outside of BM and current DH.


(Relictor) #13

I have a really great idea.

Remove Breath of Sindragosa from the game and admit that it’s a failure design-wise and move onto something better.


(Shríke) #14

I mean, if you think what your doing now is engaging then idk what to tell you.


(Nutscrape) #15

i agree with this. we need other good talent choices. icecap is not a good T100 talent, just a swap from another tier. Obliteration could use a buff.


(Amarlly) #16

Could you PLEASE buff Obliteration in some way too, some of us can’t stand the BoS playstyle and seeing it get buffed when it’s already the best performing talent in it’s row is very frustrating.


#17

I appreciate the work being done to make BoS feel more fluid. At this point I would say one of my biggest problems is the timing of pillar of frost. Pillar should really be buffed a little bit and put on a 1 min cooldown in order to line up with breath. Having to hold breath while you wait 15 seconds for pillar to come back up always feels really bad and it would be a pretty simple fix.


(Hypeir) #18

I was very disappointed to see that all this development time is being spent to enhance or improve the only competitive bottom row talent.

Please spend at least some time on bringing Obliteration (or even icecap) in line with Breath. I do not enjoy the pool-n-dump playstyle of Breath, and am left with playing unholy this expansion instead since frost is otherwise unusable.


#19

And Unholy is in the crapper too. So youre options arent great.


#20

dont you grow tired of balancing an entire spec around a single ability that isn’t even baseline


#21

Please buff Obliterate-focused builds instead of doubling down on Breath of Sindragosa. Move talents around if you need to.

PLEASE.