Or would Garithos’ mismanagement of troops and resources be seen as a reason to disqualify him? Or his treatment of allies both true and potential? There’s also the matter of having been corrupted by a Dreadlord.
Somehow, I’m not sure he’s the guaranteed future Regent/King you’re making him out to be. Any power-hungry noble could’ve easily given a dozen reasons he never should’ve been made Grand Marshal, and shouldn’t hold a position higher than post man.
But that’s not what happened. He was recognized as the highest ranking surviving member of the Lordaeron military, and as such, was the one to receive supplies and troops from other member-nations of the Alliance.
Sorry to burst your bubble but the Legion plot, especially on Argus was owned by the alliance full stop. Alleria and Turalyon returned to the fold with sizeable armies at their side. Velen returned home. Khadgar is also a member of the original Sons of Lothar. And even if Illidan is neutral on paper he used to be a night elf who are also part of the alliance. Whenever the neutral plot comes around you will see a large crowd of gathered alliance leaders dominating it. Which was valid criticism from the Horde community about everything that came after Cataclysm.
Isn’t all of this overthinking the story and the situation it depicted back then? If Garithos was leading what was left of Lordaeron’s forces and giving out orders that others followed, then he effectively was Lordaeron for the short time he had it. I don’t think it really matters that the reason for his position was “everyone in a higher role was dead” because the end result is still him being the highest ranked human around.
Well, this is the Story Forums. That’s kind of what we do around here.
Except he wasn’t. He’d effectively have been a Warlord. It would’ve been up to Lordaeron’s nobility to determine a regent or new dynasty, and we know he wasn’t the only noble to survive. Heck, the Barov’s make a point of their squabble, and we saw a fair few Lordaeron nobility in the Scarlet Crusade as well.
He was though, he’s was highest ranking military leader of the Alliance at that point (stated multiple times), he had that authority. There wasn’t anything much left but the military. And that was what the Alliance was all about in the first place. There wasn’t anyone else around at that time, no one is mentioned in the Chronicles nor when you played through the campaign in WC3.
If you read through the Chronicles, it’s clear that Garithos was the accepted representative of the Alliance forces at that time. There is no ambiguity there. Kael’thas also accepted Garithos claim, even though he didn’t like him. There was no “I could look for some other representative” or anything like that.
Incorrect. He was the highest ranking military leader of Lordaeron.
The Alliance was a military coalition, not every nation giving up it’s military to form a single super massive military. Each nation maintained it’s own separate militaries, with their own chains of command. There wasn’t even a Supreme Allied Commander during WC3.
Well, sure, in a way. But that hasn’t any meaning for the story we are talking about. Jaina or any of the other splinter groups didn’t matter for that part of the story. The whole Kael’thas and BE story is clearly written in the form that they felt abandoned by the Alliance (and also that they gave the Alliance reasons to be weary of them, and are hypocritical because they did the same thing in the past), not just by some random warlord.
You seem to be in a bit of a weird space there. Yes, formally the Alliance was this and that, but at the point we are talking about, there weren’t any national separated militaries with own chains of command left, who’d meet up and decide what to do. The one at hand - the Blood Elf one - does exactly that, Kael’thas pledges his loyalty to the leader of the Alliance forces (if I remember WC# correctly, basically re-entering the Alliance after his father left it), and to who does he do that? To Garithos. Everyone who counted at that point thought Garithos in rightfully in charge. Afaik there were no objections, no power struggles or anything mentioned like that. Even Kael’thas, who’d profited a lot if anyone but Garithos would have been in charge, accepted this.
It’s really hard to argue, because that’s how it’s written in all the sources we have, it’s not ambiguous. Blizzard’s story telling isn’t subtle. If they wanted Garithos to be one of many warlords with no real claim of being the Alliance leader at that point they would have said so.
Except that’s not how this works. Wolfheart showed us how the Alliance works. To accept (or in Gilneas’ case, re-accept) a member, a vote must be held by the leaders of each of the Alliance’s member-states, either their heads, or representatives. As you noted, each nation hadn’t sent it’s own general/king or what have you. In short, Kael’thas’ efforts to support the Alliance through Garithos were entirely intended to demonstrate his dedication as the new ruler of Quel’Thalas to the Alliance, and seek readmission.
Garithos did not have the power to induct new members into the Alliance. Such a thing didn’t exist until the High King nonsense, and even then only Anduin has been doing it for the Alliance’s Allied Races.
That’s exactly how that works in that situation though. That very system is how every chain of power and command functions IRL. If the king, nobles, or high authority are dead or absent, the authority and say of the Alliance will fall to the person with the highest authority and position until such time a higher authority can be located or communicated with. It doesn’t matter if this was the Alliance or Loredaron, the function is the same. If he says he commands the Alliance forces, and there’s none around that can contest it nor have a higher rank / authority, it is so.
At the time Garithos was the highest authority in the area. As such he was head of the Alliance until such time a higher authority could be contacted. This is the same system and reason the Elves could join the Alliance the first time. They didn’t pledge it to Lothar or King Menethil, they pledged it to Turalyon who was the highest rank present.
Then I suppose it would have fallen to Magni Bronzebeard. He would be the Highest Authority in the Alliance of sound mind at that point, since Varian would’ve already had been elbow deep in depression over Tiffin’s death, I believe. Not entirely sure the sequence of events in Stormwind and how they correlate to the Third War, though. That said, Ironforge certainly would’ve been the strongest remaining nation-state of the Alliance.
That is NOT how the Alliance worked. No single individual had authority over the entire Alliance until the Blue Warchief High King nonsense. Until MoP, the Alliance was always a council of leaders of each member nation/state.
I repeat. Garithos was the defacto head of the forces of Lordaeron. As Ironforge was sending supplies and reinforcements to Lordaeron, he would have received them. However, he had no authority to act as a leading figure in the Alliance in any political capacity. If he had, I imagine he’d have told Kael’thas and his Blood Elves to get bent and crawl back to their own lands. Granted that’s still ignoring the fact we don’t know when the Dreadlords were controlling him exactly.
The point here is Garithos was a warlord, and not the man the Alliance would have chosen to head up the efforts in the North, had the Council (which at that point would’ve been Magni, Varian, and Jaina) ever met to discuss the matter officially.
Stop taking words literally. It makes you sound insane. I won’t rehash what I just typed to you and explain how this structure works. I suggest some homework of reading how chains of command work. Garithos in his capacity of his position and situation, represented the entire Alliance to Kael’thas and the Blood Elves until such time someone of higher authority is contacted. That is the pure fact of the matter.
My own argument was never meant to say that Othmar Garithos was representing or leading the entirety of the Alliance. Just that he was recognized as the leading human in the Alliance section that is Lordaeron, thus he was formally recognized as a representative of the Lordaeron kingdom.
Tell you what. Here’s the pure fact of the matter, from Ask CDev.
There you go. What that tells us is:
Garithos was NOT representing the Alliance. He was “cut off from the chain of command.”
He was recognized as potentially the last remnant of Lordaeron’s government, and the strongest Warlord in the area, which is why aid sent north wound up coming to him.
As I’ve explained numerous times already in this post, Garithos had no official political power at all. The Alliance was in chaos in the aftermath of the Third War, no one knew what was going on. The Alliance as a whole did not say, “Oh, this Garithos guy will be in charge.” Instead, Ironforge/Quel’Thalas went, “Well, this particular warlord has the biggest army, let’s throw our support at him.”
So, for the last time, NO. Garithos did NOT represent the Alliance, period. At most he represented Lordaeron, but even that is iffy because he was still only potentially the last remnant of it’s government.
Wait, if he was the highest ranking surviving officer, that means he’s the new top link in the chain of command. For him to be cut off would mean that other people would have difficulty reporting to him, not the other way around, wouldn’t it?
Feels like the Cdev answer is trying to have it both ways by making him the leader of what was left while going “but he doesn’t count because reasons”.
Exactly and seeing as the other alliance members recongize him as a officer and last remant of Lordaerons goverment, he would be serving the alliances interests in the area.
I chalk it up to blizz wanting their cake and eating it too or ignorance. Otherwise, if he wasn’t representing the alliance, than why do some alliance players get pissy when he’s bought up at all?
The Alliance’s spymaster certainly considers Garithos a representative of the faction.
… then again, the blood elves were entertaining bad faith ambassadors from the Alliance as late as TBC, so he’s shaky on that point. It was less “Alliance bigotry” and more “Alliance apathy” that drove them to the Horde.
From what I gather, it means that he was cut off from the Chain of Command in the Alliance itself. As in, other nations. The north was in a state of advanced chaos following the fall of multiple kingdoms to the Scourge.
I think the best analogy is, Garithos was as much representing the Alliance as any RP’er is when they have their character say, “I’m speaking on behalf of the Alliance and the High Exarch,” or something. Self-appointment is not official.
Different people will also have different views on characters. Personally I thought Garithos was a two-dimensional cardboard cut-out of a character who’s only purpose to exist was as a plot device for other characters and narratives. In a way, he’s fascinating because despite how simple and basic he was, he had massive impacts on the narrative. Kind of the opposite of a narrative black hole; he launched other characters and stories into the stars.
Reading that, the Spymaster’s words are, “Grand Marshal of what remained of Lordaeron’s forces,” and that he sullied the Alliance’s name with his actions towards Kael’thas and the Blood Elves. Not sure where, ‘representative of the Alliance,’ factors into that, unless everyone in the Alliance is suddenly a representative of it.
I’d also point out, I quoted from Ask CDev. It’s as close to, ‘Word of God,’ as you’ll get in this franchise.
Garithos was acting on his own initiative, cut off from the Alliance chain of command, unsupervised, unadvised.
I think it has less to do with communication with other nations. He communicated perfectly with Ironforge from a distance. Not sure what the hell happened with Stormwind, but the comics focusing on Varian also does not mention the state of Lordaeron at all in that period of time.
I think it simply means that the commanding chain in the Lordaeron army was broken, officers and other leaders were not found or were found dead, basically creating a break in the ‘chain of command’ and Othmar found himself the highest ranked as a result. Each nation within the Alliance had their own armies, just because something breaks in one, does not mean it breaks in another.
Quite official when the other members of the Alliance points to you as representative though, from thereon you are now representing your nation as far as that other nation is concerned, aka, Ironforge and the Blood Elves now found Othmar Garithos to be representative of the Lordearon Kingdom and thus a representative of the Alliance in that area.
Jaina Proudmoore in one example is not important, by the way. She is not of Lordaeron, she was not a part of Lordaeron’s nobility or military, etc. She did take some people with her from Lordaeron though, not that it is important - she left for Kalimdor and settled down there.
Each race (Or in this case Kingdom) that is a part of the Alliance represents the Alliance. I am also not sure how Garithos factors in when speaking the current Alliance, but he was not what ended up making the Blood Elves cut the Alliance off for good anyway, the current Alliances made their own little trouble in Eversong Woods and Ghostlands themselves.
I am surprised that Anduin considers Arthas as an example of the Alliance’s failures though, and not Garithos. Or he just gave two examples only in the form of Arthas and Daelin.
Canonically there were, as earliest as WC1, they call might call themself high elfs then. but still. The sorceress and Healers in WC3 are the belfs/higjtelf. They were part of it, and then Alliance cast them away. But this “alternative history” attempt for fictional factions in silly game, made me chuckle a bit. Thanks.
