So, removing these two core abilities along with improvements to traps, you would end up with things like Steady Shot, Aimed Shot, Chimaera Shot, etc.?
Is that what you meant?
I hate to break it to you but that really wasn’t the case. RSV did not have either of those, ergo, it wasn’t just MM but with ES and BA + better traps…
When will people stop trying to make a pass of the argument of “if you just remove X+Y+Z, the specs were the same”…
Talk about twisting reality to fit the narrative.
How you felt personally is irrelevant to a discussion about design criteria, and as you’re clearly unwilling to make an objective comparison of the two specs as they were back then…yeah…
I will never understand why players are not more up in arms over all of the MM reworks over the years that caused the spec to become one of the largest roller coaster rides in regards to performance. MM has had more “reworks” than almost any spec in the game. People have been playing (or trying to play MSV) since Vanilla.
I genuinely thought this was true when I first began frequenting the forums. There are definitely posters who make it seem that way, criticizing the spec for weaknesses that dont exist, or claiming that its strengths and weaknesses are flipped from the reality. Its clear that some people have never actually tried it before criticizing it.
And the debate is very emotionally charged. So there is a lot of stuff that gets said (by myself as well) that is just kind of ragey, and not totally fact based nor open minded.
But as Watermist pointed out a while ago, some of us who enjoy the debate have tightened up our positions and arguments. The discussion has gotten at least a little more civil. That doesnt mean everyone agrees, but there is a greater level of empathy across the board in regards to the SV debate.
I know that I have come to understand that the 4th spec idea has merit, even if I dont subscribe to it. I know Bepples has made great points about the inherent weakness of a melee hunter, despite myself personally not caring about those weaknesses. Lazyguide is a wealth of information with strong points in favor of 4th spec RSV.
It is clear that many people who dislike HSV have indeed tried it. There are even people who prefer Legion MSV for whatever reason.
Anyway, I think “open minds” aren’t the problem, and if they are, its because of the way MSV was implemented.
My guess? Blizz doesn’t want to deal with trying to balance it as a possible playstyle. Look at how long it took them to add 2H frost back which was heavily requested and isn’t good for anything other than maybe PVP.
But I think it is a fair point that Black Arrow and Explosive Shot aren’t really an identity. And in any case, “fancy shots” fits in more with an MM identity. Did it feel different to play than MM? Yeah. Did it really have much of an identity? Not really. The change came with Legion, which was entirely about spec identity in terms of design. As to why it was changed to melee? I sort of wonder if they thought of the artifact first, and then went from there, but I obviously have no proof of that. Maybe they thought there was more ‘market’ for a melee hunter spec than there has been.
They were/made for part of an identity. One that was substantially different to what MM was/is.
No they don’t.
MM is, in it’s core, about being a skilled sharpshooter and about skillfull use of the weapon itself.
RSV and the abilities you refer to as “fancy shots” have nothing to do with that fantasy. RSV portrayed/represented the idea of a WoW-version of a Munitions Expert and a Trapper, not a sharpshooter. Those are very different fantasies(within the scope of Hunter still ofc).
It’s identity was perfectly clear, see above.
The problem is that you are of the opinion that “they both use ranged weapons so both are the same”.
Open your mind to what it actually means to be a sharpshooter compared to a munitions expert(again, within the scope of WoW).
Think about why those two fantasies are not the same…
Shouldn’t this very thread and the 10 others just like it posted within the last 10 days be considered feedback? I don’t think any class thinks Blizzard is actively monitoring their forums for feedback but yet every day there are feedback threads.
lol yes.
Yes Survival was ranged in Vanilla and it was the only talent tree that buffed melee abilities and gave us the worst 31 point talent in the history of the game…a melee talent. The “trying to” part is the the part you missed. Once Hunters got T2/Naxx gear they were running around dual wielding crusader/agi weapons memeing before memeing was a thing. It was for S-n-G’s but the seed was planted.
Seriously though, MSV is a different feel. I admit its not for everyone. In PvP I love it. In PvE its not bad. Again, it about the content. Even in my gear up state, I am doing PvE stuff and someone say lol he’s SV. We should kick him. Well the group did the run, and guess who was first on the meters…
SV may not be optimal…its not the best, but again its the person who is actually operating the keyboard that makes the true difference. Yeah yeah before the beating baddies is no big deal, or better players on a real spec will destroy jump in…the fact is that the player does make a difference. Sims and everything else cannot play the game for you. So if you are satisfied with your ability, you can have fun. As I said, I’ll be PvP’ing 90% of the time. So I’ll have my fun.
It was played at ranged even back then. The context of the talents is important. Yes, there were some things that buffed melee, as well as traps and general survability. It was played and performed best at range, but in the situation an enemy was within melee it still did a bit more damage and was better at getting back to ranged compared to BM and MM. The removal of lacerate (which was left really undertuned to discourage just staying in melee) for Wyvern Sting further emphasized it’s control aspects and ability to keep enemies at bay.
You were not by any means intended to melee back then.
I remember Vanilla Survival well. What people don’t remember was that RSV only pulled ahead of Marksman once you had 600 Agi or basically Nax level gear. It was fun to play for sure and I wasn’t implying that people were not trying to progressive raid as MSV. They were in Duelator making Rogues and Warriors cry. The concept for MSV was there from the beginning they (Blizzard) just didn’t go all until Legion.
They have admitted that Hunter was a last minute addition to the class roster so close to launch. MSV was most likely always the plan but pushed it out the door as RSV.
Sure. But I think how the implemented it was a massive mistake. At that point, you’ve now had twelve years of the class being the only class that focused on ranged weaponry at all with a dedicated player base that liked the themes and gameplay involved within the class.
I’m not saying you cannot have a melee hunter. But I dispute the history of it being melee back then. I think MSV can have room within the class but I constantly argue for a 4th spec because what they did was wrong. Whatever they originally intended at the point of Legion really didn’t matter any more. If they wanted to bring that thematic experience of fighting in melee with your pet, it should have always been a 4th spec, rather than what actually happened.
There’s a reason why current SV is the least popular spec in the game, and I don’t believe it’s the tuning since it has had different points where it was ahead of the other two specs but still failed to bring more than a small portion of the hunter community.
Ultimately, I don’t want the spec to go. But I think RSV should be brought back and updated as a 4th spec. The current precedent is blizz can and will delete specs if they want to put something entirely different in its place. I don’t think that’s healthy for the game, and I think ultimately that is actually problematic for current SV too. The current Dev team may not consider the constant discussion and requests for RSV to return to be worth it. But there’s no guarantee they won’t change their minds or change devs around and things change again, putting MSV’s continued existence into question. I think that is just as wrong for current SV as it was for what they did to RSV.
Ultimately, it’s entirely on Blizz to fix the issue of their own creating. The community at large isn’t going to be satisfied until they actually address it by doing something in regards to RSV. Whatever they may have originally intended, it’s certainly not what we got and had for about twelve years (or eight if we start from wrath where the more modern and popular version of the spec started).
Good point as to the thematic differences between ‘sharpshooter’ and ‘munitions expert,’ though I will counter that 1) Survival as the “munitions expert” was never explicitly fleshed out (munitions expert is a fine theme, but what does that have to do with ‘survival?’), and 2) as I recall, the various “munitions” talents that there have been throughout the years have never been exclusive to SV hunters. Various different shots were the domain of all hunters.
I don’t think it really was though. It could be sort of inferred…but then why wasn’t SV given the ‘munitions’ talents when they came around? If I’m wrong about that I’ll stand corrected, but I’m pretty sure that “Exotic Munitions” (or whatever it was called) started as a talent for all hunters (but then was migrated to MM). Sure, SV had Black Arrow and Explosive shot…but other specs had Cobra Shot, Chimera Shot, etc. etc.
You must be confusing me with another poster; I have never been of that opinion.
I completely understand where you are coming from and I agree for the most part. The introduction to MSV was not well received and poorly implemented. I have always wanted Survival to be the “CC” spec that focused on traps, kiting, control and just a tad more tankier than MM/BM. They should have made a talent that would allowed a player to chose Melee vs Ranged like Warriors have with single minded fury vs titan’s grip, I think that the spec really would shine in M+ and RBGs.
I loved leveling as Survival in BC and running dungeons with the ability to triple trap, sting and pet tank a mob. Hunters were a one man CC gang. But in my gut I don’t think that we will ever see another class with 4th spec option. My gut and .50 will buy you a cup of coffee so take that for what it is worth.
You might and probably are right there, unfortunately. But I also will keep arguing for one because I think it’s the best option going forward, and if I don’t at least try then it certainly will never happen lol.
I think the fear and likelihood of it not happening should not be the deterrent for arguing for it if that makes sense. Blizz has to know what a mess they have caused, and I suspect they will come up with some sort of “solution” eventually to, if nothing else, placate the community. I want to make sure they go with what I think will end up satisfying the hunter player base the most while retaining those who like the current spec.
We are running into the changing of the Old Guard vs New Guard in regards to the devs. It is highly unlikely that there are many people still around that worked on the original Hunter Class Vision. Change brings both good and bad depending on prescriptive but the chance is there and that is all that we really have.