Violence did not destroy the British Empire’s influence at least in my country. A mutiny demanding more leniency and more religious consideration only resulted in full-blown British control. It was instead a consistent movement bent on being peaceful that broke them down (unless you want to spin it as “the British were weakened after WW2, they would have never been able to keep control anyway”).
Britain, Denmark, and Japan are still long running monarchies. Granted, most current monarchies are constitutional now… So. Kinda still going.
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We live in, at least in Western culture, a Judaeo-Christian society. I was raised to understand that Christianity isn’t actually a separate religion from Judaism. Its a continuation of it. With the 10 commandments being a “lesser law” (carnal law) because the people at the time (who were engaging in idol worshiping, orgies, and a number of other sinful behaviors) were not ready for the higher (spiritual) law that came with the new testament. As such, if an individual can’t even live up to the lesser law, yet, then they aren’t ready for the spiritual law. (At least this was how it has always been explained to me.)
As such, I don’t understand why Christians would hate Jews. Its the same religion, fundamentally, and they worship the same god. To me they should be seen, if not extensions of each other, then at least sibling religions. I also can’t read the Bible (either testament) to suggest that hating anyone would be tolerated by the Abrahamic god, especially since He (using a male pronoun because he’s referenced as a “father”) is a god of infinite love. Even Christ said that the purpose of his mission was to help people repent. Nowhere in the text does it talk about Christ standing on an ivory tower and condemning people.
The bible, in multiple places, specifically commands people to “go forth and multiply” or “replenish the earth.” Not sure how you could interpret that as being against having children. But, given that there are multiple religions, if you SINCERELY believed that it would be a sin for YOU to have children, then I’d respect that. If your belief requires you to prevent OTHERS from having children, then I can’t get on board with you.
Again, if you can’t live up to the lesser law, then you aren’t ready for the greater law. The early Israelite people had such a problem with sexual behaviors that they literally had to implement a death penalty regime for them. If you slept with a “beast” (animal), if you slept with someone of the same gender, if you raped someone, etc.
The fact that I am bi, and I disagree with the restriction, doesn’t make the restriction non-cannon for people who sincerely believe in their religion.
That being said, my personal view on it is that religious or spiritual beliefs should be personal. They are between you and the deity or divine force that you believe in. No where in the Bible, for instance, does it say that you have to “force” others to practice what you do. Any interpretation of the old testament/torah/etc. that reads otherwise fails to see a specific point. The Israelite people were a theocracy. Their secular law was tied into the religion. So secular punishments for breaking the law is the only way to designate which laws were secular and which laws were spiritual.
In our society, we are not a theocracy. But our constitution recognizes that religious beliefs are extremely important to people. Simply because you or I disagree with those beliefs, whether on secular or conflicting religious grounds, doesn’t give us the right to say that their beliefs are without merit. In my opinion, simply because a way of life works for me doesn’t give me any moral standing to say that a conflicting belief system is wrong, immoral, or bigoted, so long as that belief doesn’t force me to do something I don’t believe in.
So my desire to respect opposing or differing beliefs doesn’t come from a place of placation or weakness. It means I am secure enough in who I am that I don’t feel threatened by others beliefs. But because I am unwilling to let others tell me what I should believe, in order not be a hypocrite, I will not try to force my beliefs onto other people.
So back to the point of this thread, when I say “please don’t bring this fight to WoW” its not because I don’t think that eventually we should have content for people of our movement. We should. However, to overrule a group of people on something as important as SINCERELY held beliefs, would only alienate a portion of the players in the game. In short, we would be doing to them what we accuse them of doing to us. That isn’t fair. And that inequity will only create more hostility towards us. So, while it might provide a short-term solution, it wouldn’t give us a long term gain. So I feel that it would be more detrimental to social reform than it would be beneficial.
That being said, if the objection is not based on SINCERELY held religious or spiritual beliefs, if there is evidence suggesting that they are holding up religion as a justification when they don’t actually believe in it, then such a distinction would cross the line from “reasonable” to “unreasonable.”
That’s a weird tangent to go off of when the point isn’t referring to society or culture. We’re simply talking about how media probably should add representation for people. The only reason religion was brought up at all is because you noted how you were raised christian and how christian beliefs can sometimes consider homosexuality a sin.
As if that somehow matters. Now we’re starting to get deeper into something people probably aren’t comfortable talking about, I know I’m not really.
Again, this is a really weird tangent when that has nothing to do with my actual point. I implore you to examine what I was trying to demonstrate, as I don’t really care nor did I ask of your opinions on christians and their relations with jewish people.
And to tie this knot into a bow, no I was not invoking the bible or whatever, I was trying to demonstrate the logic you were using in that sentence. Because, the thing about religious texts, especially with the Bible, you can justify just about anything.
This is true even for believers, I’m sure, there’s a reason why “false phrophets” are a thing.
Here’s the thing: We’ve been telling you this whole time that is categorical error. You keep saying that somehow this will step on someone else’s rights to add gay characters in a video game. You have to see how ridiculous and overblown this is at this point.
That is completely subjective, what is sincere? What isn’t sincere? What even is religion? Do you specifically have a slot where you put the religious symbol on your stat sheet and suddenly you are “Sincerely” whatever?
Reasonability and unreasonability aren’t clear enough words for this, and I don’t think you can find clearer words because of the nature of these things.
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wow i took one two weeks off and when i come back my account is on hold cuz i defended my sexual orientation, lol…
on a serious note it is warms my heart to see so many ppl that don’t agree with each other cuz of ingame things being unite against homofobia.
i may have been harsh with gan but still it sickens me see ppl negate lgbtqi+ existence.
All I’m saying is that adding new content that brings such a divisive thing into the game would simply make the game more divisive in a way that it isn’t needed. The objection to LGBT+, in most cases, is rooted in religion. Hence, my clarification on my perspective.
If Blizzard decided to accommodate us in seeking this representation, I think it would be more harmful to our movement than positive. Not because of what we want, which I hope is construed as a reasonable request, but because of how controversial it is in light of the societal problems we’re currently facing.
And all I want to do is play WoW. I want to escape the crap going on in the world. I don’t want to log in and have to deal with it in my go-to escape.
That’s losing ground and colonies but it never fell. It was never dismantled.
A lot of Christians hate Jews because there is quite a lot of anti-semitism in the New Testament. Like… the blood curse. That’s why Jewish people have been persecuted by Christians ever since they got powerful enough as a religion, and specially in the Middle Ages. Right now Christians (at least the American ones) have a very strange relationship with the people of Israel for both political reasons (since the two nations are super friends) and because in rapture theology, which is mostly and only prevalent in the southern states of the U.S., the Jewish people play a pivotal role in the end of the world.
Also please, stop spouting their talking points.
The best representation of LGBT characters are characters whose characters do not revolve around their sexuality.
The Wire had a character named Omar who I loved because he was a great character. He happened to be gay. His sexuality never really was the focus of his character. It was just who he was. The writers never spent a great deal of time making his sexuality important.
I mean when I think about the Wire and think about Omar, the first thought that comes to mind isn’t about his sexuality. It’s about him causing terror in his neighborhood with a shotgun.
I hope if Blizzard adds more LGBT characters, because there are some if you read quest texts, they don’t make their entire character their sexuality.
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Also, and I’m sorry but rape in the bible isnt frowned upon, instead, it is a quick way to get yourself a wife.
“If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.” Deuteronomy.
And even if they were friendly to Jewish people as a “sister” religion, which is depends on which Christian you ask, Hitler was s Christian too… they will NEVER extend that sisterhood to Islam.
I do think I get what you’re saying, you’re trying to say that there’s been social unrest lately, and in the light of other games getting bad talk because of LGBT representation lately you think wow will be added to that list. The thing is that there isn’t really anything good we can do for that, those people are already lost. That will remain the case until it doesn’t.
It’s not like if this is added to the game it will worsen, no. It will either only get better or change nothing. If your server is getting harassment, then report it. That’s all I can say for that.
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If your religious or societal beliefs prevent someone else from existing, you’re nothing but a bigot and your beliefs do not weigh more than people’s right to exist and love who they love.
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Unfortunately, those kinds of requests are considered “Hiding your gays” to these people. The topic of representation is not a unified position on how LGBT characters are to be represented.
I agree on the premise that characters shouldn’t have their sexuality be a major hallmark of their personality. I find that any time that the first thing we learn about a character is that they’re some part of LGBT, and trhat’s more important than their purpose to the story going forward… I lose all interest as it makes the character look extremely shallow.
People here find the “Loud, proud, and allowed” approach to be perfect, but in the same hand ostracizing others who didn’t care to learn that bit of information. We can observe from the hundreds of posts here that those who want this aren’t willing to budge on this approach.
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if we were to remove everything that someone might object to because of religious reasons, wow would become a very boring setting. and that is the last thing wow needs right now.
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Omar’s a wonderful example of the kind of representation people want, actually!
I haven’t seen much of any criticism of Omar’s character on the Wire as it comes to gay representation. Not compared to the praise. He’s definitely not an example of the “hiding your gays” trope, as him being gay is never left unresolved for the audience. His entire first season arc was about his dead boyfriend. And the narrative never implies that he shouldn’t be gay, or tries to push him into the background.
He’s very much an example “loud, proud, and allowed” and one of the forms of representation people would like to see. Especially gay black men- who are even more underrepresented in media.
The issue is really that people have a tendency to hold any character that’s not straight to a much higher degree of narrative scrutiny.
Whereas heterosexual characters are generally free to run the gamut from deep to shallow to healthy to unhealthy, etc. Because they generally get so many chances to be in the spotlight that they can represent a broader swath of experiences.
Mankrik is only famous because of his dead wife. Aggra’s claim to fame is being Thrall’s mate and baby mamma. Tyrande and Malfurion find it hard to share screen time without reminding us that they’re lovers. Blizzard just released a short story about Lor’themar and Thalyssra having the hots for each other that did nothing to further the game’s narrative.
Blizzard isn’t afraid of putting characters into relationships “just because”. Just do the same, but introduce some characters that just happen to not be cisheterosexual.
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does anyone even remember mankrik’s wife’s name without having to look it up on wowpedia?
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To make a long story short, I’ve done a decent amount of amateur level research on groups like the K K K.
I can tell you that on the local chapter’s website (note that each chapter is VERY separate and independent from others, and that they fight amongst themselves constantly) they outlined what they do and don’t believe.
Among this list was the line “We do not recognize the ‘Jewish’ version of the Bible.”
It’s a mix of hilarious and terrifying. They are so deluded they don’t even follow some of the most widely-accepted aspects and tenants of their own proclaimed religion.
Honestly, the more I’ve learned of White Supremacy groups, the more I’ve come to realize that they’re not just morally wrong, but actually illogical to the point of delusion.
If you’re looking for reasoned answers why they believe what they believe, you will not find it.
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Yes.
Olgra or Olga.
then you are one of the few who does (assuming you didnt cheat and looked it up) most simply know her as mankrik’s wife because her two defining traits is her marriage to mankrik, and the fact that she is dead.
I’ve RP’d next to her grave a few times. It names her, and I’ve read it a few times.
(This, I did look up)
The small grave marker is lovingly inscribed with orcish runes.
BELOVED OLGRA
Wife of Mankrik
It took forever to find you
And now you are gone.
In Legion’s prelaunch event, you could see Mankrik defending the grave from demons.
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