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And the reason why it was nerfed was still LFD.
.
No, that isn't the reason at all.
They were nerfed because they were too difficult for the majority of the player base that dungeons were aimed at. LFD is besides the point.
It's very telling that you guys keep going back to Cata as your only argument. Why use Cata when it's obvious to anyone that Cata heroics were much harder than current M0?
BFA M0 are about the same difficulty as WoD heroics, which were in the dungeon finder and were absolutely fine. People still wiped all the time in WoD heroics, but they were still completable just fine if people were willing to listen to explanations and try more than one time. They didn't need to be nerfed.
actually they are a bit more difficult than that. there are more things to cc, more things to interrupt, kill orders, mechanics, ect.
and what do you think the "target audience" would be if they made it queable ? the same people that thought the cata dungeons were too hard , and the same people who think its too hard to make their own freaking group.
...
am i the only one who thinks Underrot is a joke?
Like...I understand wipes in Mythic 10+, but like... Mythic 0... Savage Cleave isn't exactly hard to dodge, nor is stunning a mob and following up with a kick.
You have no idea man. Doing heroics during launch week had me pulling my hair out as a tank. Every single person forgot what stuns and kicks were and that continues now in all queuable content.
And yet you still completed them. And you presumably still used the dungeon finder, even though there was nothing stopping you getting a group of 5 guildmates and walking into the dungeon manually. What does that tell you?
It tells me
1. The dungeons you did were still completed despite the bad players you played with
2. Even you prefer the queue system to manually forming a group, since you used it yourself.
Basically you are totally fine with queues when they are in content that's relevant to you (i.e. heroics at release). You only really want them to be banned from content that you don't do (M0 now).
What gives you the right to assume this?
I did every cata dungeon at release. They were much more difficult than WOTLK heroics, but they were by no means impossible. Don't remember every wiping on any boss more than a couple of times.
Sure, there were people who couldn't handle that and left groups in a rage after a couple of wipes. But for people who enjoy dungeons it really wasn't an issue at all.
After the first few days it was mostly just a case of having to explain mechanics to people in advance because it was a certain wipe on certain bosses if you didn't. But that didn't stop me or many others from queueing, and neither did it make me want to spend huge chunks of times manually creating groups.
The person who I responded to, who to the best of my knowledge was not you, had the majority of their achievements completed mid to late 2011 and early 2012 which was after subsequent nerfs to the content and after the buff to the Luck of the Draw buff.
Edit: Fixed formatting
Posted by Dewclawz
No, don't be lazy, find a group
Why? Because that's what you want? I could easily say dont be elitist queue with everyone else. Both comments make wild assumptions and force a particular path instead of simply providing and option
Queing leads to a daily incentive reward to have to carry scrubs because they genuinely can't get through content themselves, LFR, heroics and even low keys (which are basically a queue at the moment because of the low requirements) right now are CLEAR evidence of that. I've enjoyed not having to queue and carry remedial content for AP and leggos this xpac and would like it to stay that way.
You don't have to queue for anything. There has always been the option to enter the dungeon the old fashioned way. The fact that most people prefer queueing shouldn't bother you at all since you don't want to play with those people anyway.
11/12/2018 03:35 PMPosted by
Kirela
Why don't people make groups for heroic dungeons in the group tool? Why do people still complain about getting kicked or tanks that often aren't even tanks speed pulling the whole dungeon?
People do make heroic groups in the group finder tool. They certainly did at the start of the expansion when they didn't yet have the ilvl to queue.
As to why they don't do that now? It's mostly because M0 is so easy that there's no point doing heroics at all, why make a heroic group in the dungeon finder when you can make a mythic group?
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You have no idea man. Doing heroics during launch week had me pulling my hair out as a tank. Every single person forgot what stuns and kicks were and that continues now in all queuable content.
And yet you still completed them. And you presumably still used the dungeon finder, even though there was nothing stopping you getting a group of 5 guildmates and walking into the dungeon manually. What does that tell you?
It tells me
1. The dungeons you did were still completed despite the bad players you played with
2. Even you prefer the queue system to manually forming a group, since you used it yourself.
Basically you are totally fine with queues when they are in content that's relevant to you (i.e. heroics at release). You only really want them to be banned from content that you don't do (M0 now).
I dont mind the queue for easy content. It has no place in m0 or m+ content.
Also I have done a m+10 or above every week since launch. I still have my m10 355 ilvl drop before the ilvl was adjusted so wtf you talking about?
@Aewendil
its really simple and ill repeat it 1 more time.
make a group yourself.
make friends.
join a guild that does content with you.
anything else is just you asking for your hand to be held.
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Except most of history suggest the opposite.
Heroic dungeons were in the queue since WOTLK, and in every expansion up until Legion, that was the highest form of dungeon content. There weren't screaming cries for nerfs in every expansion, that was literally only in Cataclysm.
So history actually suggests the opposite of what you're claim. Cataclysm was the exception.
I hardly understand your point, WotLK Heroics were not difficult at all
The ICC heroics were more difficult than BFA mythics, and they were in the dungeon finder.
WoD heroics were around the same difficulty as BFA M0, and they were in the dungeon finder.
M0 is basically the heroic dungeons of old, renamed.
@Aewendil
its really simple and ill repeat it 1 more time.
make a group yourself.
make friends.
join a guild that does content with you.
anything else is just you asking for your hand to be held.
^ This is what they want. People can't even be bothered to join a group without a queue system. It's really sad.
I dont mind the queue for easy content. It has no place in m0 or m+ content.
M0
is easy content. It's certainly easier to do a M0 now than it was to do a heroic on release day.
11/12/2018 07:14 PMPosted by
Jalen
Also you do realise that queueing doesn't mean you are stuck with someone who has no idea how to play their class. There is still a kick feature, and it is used quite often in challenging queued content.
Yup. Because that isn't a toxic mindset at all. Player having a hard time with challenging content? Kick'em. The automated queue system will just replace them right?
Neither method of group creation is meant to guarantee that you get to complete the dungeon even if you have no idea how to play. Queue guarantees you a spot in the dungeon to begin with, there's never been a guarantee that you get to stay in it if you are truly terrible.
No, that isn't the reason at all.
They were nerfed because they were too difficult for the majority of the player base that dungeons were aimed at. LFD is besides the point.
It's very telling that you guys keep going back to Cata as your only argument. Why use Cata when it's obvious to anyone that Cata heroics were much harder than current M0?
BFA M0 are about the same difficulty as WoD heroics, which were in the dungeon finder and were absolutely fine. People still wiped all the time in WoD heroics, but they were still completable just fine if people were willing to listen to explanations and try more than one time. They didn't need to be nerfed.
Want to guess what tool the majority of the player base were using? LFD. Want to guess how the minority were succeeding? Making pre-made groups.
Honestly not sure how you can state that WoD Heroics were difficult or comparable to M0 in any means.
11/12/2018 03:01 PMPosted by
Haavi
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Outside of G'huun LFR follows the same mentality. How it ensures a 100% completion rate? It provides a 5% buff to damage, healing, and health every time you fail to kill the boss. This buff continues to stack as you wipe repeatedly.
Really depends on your definition of "100% completion rate". It's not uncommon to see at least half of the group leave in LFR on bosses like Ghuun because they can't be bothered. You just see attrition until you're left with people who are willing to try a bit harder to get the kill. Does that really count as 100% completion rate?
I don't think so, because most of the people who originally joined that run didn't see completion. It's quite often a completely group of people killing Ghuun.
My definition of 100% completion is that regardless of players and composition you can successfully complete an encounter.
The fact that people leave is inconsequential, the only thing that matters is that if they persevered with the stacking determination buff they would eventually be able to down the content.
This is how LFD content is designed. It's either non-challenging or gives you an advantage to eventually overcome the challenges provided you.
Also G'huun is a separate entity in my opinion which is why I singled it out as not being included in the standard LFR encounters. The could not remove the mechanic without fundamentally changing the encounter design.
11/12/2018 07:35 PMPosted by
Xecks
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No, that isn't the reason at all.
They were nerfed because they were too difficult for the majority of the player base that dungeons were aimed at. LFD is besides the point.
It's very telling that you guys keep going back to Cata as your only argument. Why use Cata when it's obvious to anyone that Cata heroics were much harder than current M0?
BFA M0 are about the same difficulty as WoD heroics, which were in the dungeon finder and were absolutely fine. People still wiped all the time in WoD heroics, but they were still completable just fine if people were willing to listen to explanations and try more than one time. They didn't need to be nerfed.
actually they are a bit more difficult than that. there are more things to cc, more things to interrupt, kill orders, mechanics, ect.
and what do you think the "target audience" would be if they made it queable ? the same people that thought the cata dungeons were too hard , and the same people who think its too hard to make their own freaking group.
What do you think is the target audience for them now?
It's certainly not you or any of the people in this thread who are arguing to keep them pure from "bads". None of them ever run M0 unless it's the 4 dungeon weekly quest.
I dont mind the queue for easy content. It has no place in m0 or m+ content.
M0 is easy content. It's certainly easier to do a M0 now than it was to do a heroic on release day.
it is ez content once you have at least 3 people that know the interrupts and cc and mechanics.
its still too challenging for most of the people using queues for content though.
...
actually they are a bit more difficult than that. there are more things to cc, more things to interrupt, kill orders, mechanics, ect.
and what do you think the "target audience" would be if they made it queable ? the same people that thought the cata dungeons were too hard , and the same people who think its too hard to make their own freaking group.
What do you think is the target audience for them now?
It's certainly not you or any of the people in this thread who are arguing to keep them pure from "bads". None of them ever run M0 unless it's the 4 dungeon weekly quest.
its for people looking for more challenging content and who are able to try and socialize. cause you know, its a MMO.
...
I hardly understand your point, WotLK Heroics were not difficult at all
The ICC heroics were more difficult than BFA mythics, and they were in the dungeon finder.
WoD heroics were around the same difficulty as BFA M0, and they were in the dungeon finder.
M0 is basically the heroic dungeons of old, renamed.
The ICC Heroics were arguably more difficult, and guess what, they were nerfed, and the required gear to access was also increased inconsequence.
So again, through various means they were made easier to accommodate the player base.
WoD Heroics difficulty is your personal opinion. I do not believe they were that hard when using appropriate gear.
What do you think is the target audience for them now?
It's certainly not you or any of the people in this thread who are arguing to keep them pure from "bads". None of them ever run M0 unless it's the 4 dungeon weekly quest.
You obviously missed one of my previous posts where I mentioned I have currently been gearing a DH who has only just reached 339 ilvl. So yes, this content is entirely relevant to me.
I have been using group finder as the majority of my guild is currently taking a break playing either Red Dead, Black Ops, or Overwatch.
Assumptions don't get you anywhere.
11/12/2018 08:00 PMPosted by
Haavi
What do you think is the target audience for them now?
It's certainly not you or any of the people in this thread who are arguing to keep them pure from "bads". None of them ever run M0 unless it's the 4 dungeon weekly quest.
You obviously missed one of my previous posts where I mentioned I have currently been gearing a DH who has only just reached 339 ilvl. So yes, this content is entirely relevant to me.
For another 2 or 3 days max, then you'll be into M+ and never do another M0 again except when it's 4xdungeon weekly quest. Once you have 340 azerite gear in every slot there's not really any reason for you to go back into M0 when you could do M+ instead.
So again, this content isn't meant for you any more than normal or heroic dungeons are. You'll use them as a means to an end to gear up for your actual endgame content, which is raiding and M+.
11/12/2018 02:29 AMPosted by
Revlol
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LOL.
Nice contribution.
I think it's just hilarious that elitists feel entitled to lecture casuals on what casuals should want and how they should play the game to deserve to share pixels with you guys. Is that better?
All the exclusive free welfare loot you get can't buy you happiness. You sound like you have so much misery overflowing that you need to spread it around you to others who will not respect you. And you don't understand why you don't get that respect you think you are entitled to.
11/12/2018 08:00 PMPosted by
Haavi
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You obviously missed one of my previous posts where I mentioned I have currently been gearing a DH who has only just reached 339 ilvl. So yes, this content is entirely relevant to me.
For another 2 or 3 days max, then you'll be into M+ and never do another M0 again except when it's 4xdungeon weekly quest. Once you have 340 azerite gear in every slot there's not really any reason for you to go back into M0 when you could do M+ instead.
So again, this content isn't meant for you any more than normal or heroic dungeons are. You'll use them as a means to an end to gear up for your actual endgame content, which is raiding and M+.
Based on my schedule probably more like a couple of weeks. Until I decide to raise a new character that is. But isn't that what progression is all about?
You gear up and then you do more difficult content?
Anyone that is approaching 340 ilvl is going to slow down as they don't see rewards from Mythic, that's why they progress into Mythic. That being said, there are cosmetics and achievements that are still relevant to me available from Mythic0 so I may just continue doing them.
I'm not sure what this last point is supposed to be arguing, yes people outgear mythics and they become less relevant, queueing just makes this more likely to occur anyway. Just because you don't want to use the search finder doesn't make the content more relevant for longer. You will still outgear it just as quickly.