Yes it is… For you to have a larger popularity value it has to come from somewhere. How else would it work? The values have to come from somewhere and participation is where you get your numbers. My God, it’s like saying you don’t use active subs as a metric to count how many people are playing WoW. Instead Blizzard includes tallies with accounts that have been inactive for 8 years and claiming it’s a smashing success.
Why, so long as the difficulty is equal or greater to “traditional” means of getting that gear?
And if alternate loot paths are your concern here, where’s the hate for how easy it is to get higher end weapons and armor via PvP when compared to Heroic raids, etc?
What do you mean “least resistance”? 
Doing a +15 key currently is quite difficult unless you’re running a group of complete meta specs & are coordinating with voice, and it still doesn’t drop gear that’s better than what you get in the raids. That was the entire reason Ion nerfed M+ in the first place.
Just shows how little you know of what you’re complaining about.
Raid gear is still objectively easier to obtain, and offers higher IL. The only downside is you have 1x tries to get a piece of loot per boss per week in raiding.
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What part of any of that is unique to M+?
On the whole, set expectations (“toxicity”) breeds success in raids, arena, and RBGs, as well. Guess we better scrap those, too?
No and not necessarily.
The rewards to M+ are a damn good reason to get your weekly high and stop, and, even then, only if not already doing Heroic or higher raids.
That people farm it for the minor chance that one of the at most two drops per run will provide someone an upgrade says more about gear scarcity or lower enjoyment elsewhere than it does some overwhelming loot exploitability in M+.
Its being the least resistance or not has everything to do with tuning.
At present, it isn’t. Apart from Council, any normal raid is just as easy upon familiarity as a +7, and Denathrius easier than a +10 (basically two-shot in a 100% fresh raid). (And if we’re going to compare against fresh runs into normal, then you should compare that only against those who’ve never seen the given dungeon and its affixes.) Each completion gives about as much loot per person as a single boss clear.
M+, meanwhile, can reward Heroic raid gear ilvl only once per week—not up to 12 times per week for an average of 2.4 pieces atop its own weekly, while raids’ own weeklies go for higher. Mythic raids require a +14 to get a weekly chance of a single boss drop. M+ literally cannot substitute these.
what i dont understand is this;
raiding is the worst way to get loot right now. It takes much longer, the vault reward doesnt increase in ilvl, it cant be done more than once a week, you can deplete 14 keys and get mythic raid loot at the end of the week. You can die over and over and not geting any mythic loot at the end of the week lol.
It just seems counter intuitive, they wanted raiding to be the best loot, but it just isnt, M loot is 226, not 233, 233 is the last 2 bosses, the rest is 226, so 14 keys is mythic loot.
I wouldnt compare a 14 key to the same difficulty as organizing a 3/10, 7/10 and 10/10 mythic clear.
You either pvp or you run keys or you do both, thats how you get loot, and that is the best way to get loot. ITs pvp, m+ or die. not raid or die.
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Good, that means there are 2 venues to get loot instead of one i take that everyday.
I think giving more loot will not do much. Currently it’s 2 pieces of loot if the dungeon is timed, 1 if not. So your chances of getting loot are decreased by 1/2 if the dungeon is not timed. If it were 3 pieces down to 2, that is 1/3 less chance of getting loot. A smaller fraction of loot is lost, but combined with the increased time spent to get that loot and a key downgrade instead of upgrade and worse RIO score, it still feels really bad to not time the dungeon.
And so there are people who get mad when the dungeon is not timed, or they see signs that the dungeon will not be timed (such as a wipe). Some people are the silent angry type, some people yell at their teammates, some people leave.
Yes there are some people who don’t get mad about not timing the dungeon, but that is mainly because they are casuals just trying to get their over-tuned weekly reward. Instead they get mad at the people who yell at them and/or leave.
The weekly reward creates a conflict between people who are there to time the dungeon and people who are okay with not timing the dungeon. Blizzard could
- remove weekly reward so there’s essentially no casuals in M+
- nerf weekly reward so that casuals have to get good to climb M+ instead of being able to climb through inflated ILVLs
- make weekly reward require that you time the dungeon
But even if everyone intends to time the dungeon, the penalty for not timing it is such that it creates a lot of hostility toward whoever messes it up. I think the best way to solve this is to decrease the penalty of not timing the dungeon. Blizzard can’t change that a not-timed run takes longer, or that it hurts your RIO score (unless they take information away from their API or however RIO gets it). But things they can do are:
- you don’t get less loot for not timing a run
- the key gets sidegraded instead of downgraded if you don’t time a run but still complete it
No.
You are reaching which is why you are presenting an over used argument.
Yup they finally addressed PVP gearing but took a step back regarding PVE gearing. At this point PVE gearing set up needs a look over overall.
But M+ should never be the only game in town to gear for raids, PVP and M+. I don’t see BlizZard allowing that to happen again.
I enjoy both aspects of the game as far as raising and M+ go.
Before M+ - you kinda just did your raid and dailies, that was it. Having M+ has increased play time obviously, I adore it.
If we want to get technical, Mythic RAIDING has the lowest participation of anything in the game - it would make more sense to remove that than Mythic+
The timer that makes even the smallest mistakes potentially catastrophic. The downleveled key and punishing lack of rewards in event of failure, discouraging people from sticking it out. This isnt rocket science. If you wipe in a mythic raid, clean it up and try again - no harm, no foul. You dont get downleveled to heroic or have an extra drop taken away. You dont have a timer you’re racing against from the second you zone in and begin.
It also has some of the most exciting moment to moment gameplay, especially as you start pushing the keys higher. Being a DPS in raids is like being in a coma by comparison.
If raids are someone’s thing that’s cool. But for me, it’s M+ all the way, with or without the loot nerfs. That game mode challenges me to master my class, rather than just master my rotation. Both require me to dodge and do fight mechanics, but M+ challenges me to know every trash ability, how to counter it and when. There’s nothing more satisfying than locking down a couple dangerous mobs during a key pull while still pushing out high DPS. At least for me.
I’ve also never found the mode to be toxic. I’ve been in plenty of failed keys this season and I can only think of one where there was any toxicity involved. And before anyone asks, I pug 95% of my keys. I’m not sure if my experience is atypical, or if people exaggerate, or both, but most times when a key bricks the group just talks about whether they wanna continue, downgrade their key and try again, or just go their separate ways.
If you look in LFG there are tons of groups labelled completion and tons labelled pushing. If nothing is mentioned assume it’s a push key. People looking to get their weekly reward should join and make completion groups, people looking to push a key up should join a push group. It’s really not hard. We don’t need Blizzard to change the gearing system because people don’t talk to each other about their goals before starting a run and then get upset when it goes against what they want.
It’s a shame you’re not brave enough to post on your main. I’m curious as to what level you’re actually playing at. I’ve climbed from 0 to almost 900 RIO on a spec that nobody wants to bring, and I can count with one hand the amount of times I’ve seen any toxicity in my groups.
I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, I’m sure it does. But I believe it happens in very specific cases. Despite what people on the low end of the RIO scale complain about, playing with people around your level is a great way to minimize toxicity.
I think part of the problem lies when people that have only done a +2 PF want to do a +7, then complain when the rest of the group flames them when they die to tentacles on the last boss. They’re setting themselves up for failure.
Which is actually a ripoff of Diablo III’s Greater Rift system, like much of the Legion content.
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What’s really odd is that we have already made several observations about how Blizz is basically stretching out the time played count with multiple systems to slow us down. Yet, right here is an example of how this slow down just gets people to stop entirely.
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As opposed to the win/loss conditions of arenas, wipes in raids?..
Now that I’ll wholly agree with. But, it’s also novel to M+ in Shadowlands, iirc, not some fundamental issue with M+ as a whole.
You are correct. In addition to not having a reason to log on and play every day (no hope of a titan forge, and loot ilvl / chances nerfed) you also deal with toxic players, and people leaving dungeons early now ALL THE TIME.
We wiped on a boss in HoA on a +14, and still timed it.
What are you talking about.
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I need a TL;DR, anyways Blizzard didnt make it toxic, players made it toxic.
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Exactly right. Stop trying to push the shortcomings of this community onto the developers.
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