Blizzard Gave up on Classes


#86

not sure where people thought that 8.2 was going to address the CORE issue with classes…

they are adding a generic button or passive for each class and call it a day here… you know how this rolls, when an expansion ends the next one is where they usually keep removing things rather than add.


(Turbocharged) #87

The past 2(3?) expansions had class design “finished” during alpha. Finished in the sense that they stopped any relevant class design after that due to time constraints they put on themselves. Those expacs had unbalanced talents, half-created specs and huge ranges in class/spec power (which are still apparent live). I honestly don’t believe the next alpha/beta cycle will be different. Yeah, we’ll hear Ion talk about all these things and how they need to “be better” but at the end of the day the cycle will continue. Don’t hold your breath for class balancing going forward.


(Ojoverde) #88

garbage design, no ther words to describe it.


(Culin) #93

I’m really disappointed that my preferred class spec, Arms, is seemingly relegated to the dustbin for the entire expansion because the developers are overly conservative with rebalancing classes.


(Krissignacia) #94

i Feel for aya man i do


(Drezwazluz) #95

Tell you what. Do what no one else who argues with me has done. Show me where I was wrong.


(Nuisense) #96

No.

You are very careful to make SURE your numbers are correct. You follow the letter of a point very well. Ignoring the spirit of what was meant.

So, finding a factual place you made an error? I’m sure I won’t find one, if I bothered to try.

Finding any place where you stopped for one second to consider the meaning behind the point being made… Well, I won’t be able to find that either. Although again, I’m not gonna waste my time looking.


#97

Ignore him. Dont waste your time with someone who literally admitted they think theyre never wrong. Save yourself time and move on.


(Drezwazluz) #98

Prove me wrong about being wrong.

The meaning is pretty moot if it’s based off false assumptions and information, isn’t it? That makes it less a personal take, more an uninformed opinion.

Hasn’t your country had elections be swayed based on that?


(Nuisense) #99

Which is what makes your points meaningless. You focus on the “inaccuracies of the argument” when the meaning behind the argument is there for everyone to see. You quibble over the shape of the table, rather than just asking for a table to sit at.

And your country hasn’t? Everyone is that well self-informed and self-educated? Amazing. And wrong. And wildly off-topic and a desperate grasp for a defense.


(Drezwazluz) #100

More musing. I don’t have a seething dislike for you.

Oh, now I never said that.


(Drezwazluz) #101

Being right is never meaningless.

How can something built on falsehoods have any meaning.


(Fookí) #103

all elections are based on falsehoods… you’re telling me every politician has never lied? no one votes on “who’s best qualified”- it’s always based on what they heard, who they personally knew, etc… never based on actual facts. if that were the case and politicians were held to their word and track record, you wouldn’t need to vote…


(Drezwazluz) #104

Way to take a jab and turn it into a silly discussion.


#105

While Legion’s legendary system had its issues, I miss the interactions among the legendary effects, artifact weapons, and tier sets. It added depth to many classes without overcomplicating their rotations.

The azerite system, and these upcoming essences, are poor substitutes. Legion design wasn’t perfect, but I don’t think they should have tried to reinvent the wheel for BfA.


#109

I think blizzard has lost all connection with the community.

The disregarde for community perseptive is absolutely obvious. And the firing of the staff that had anything to do with class design further devolved blizzard into its current state.

Stop trying to re invent the god damn wheel, stop implementing new systems to fix your mistakes because its obviously NOT WORKING. fix whats actually wrong instead of slapping repetative bandaids on stuff. What was wrong with tier? It added flavour and a sense of accomplishment. Now its just RNG bullcrap and stupid filler crap that just further empowers skills we already have.

How hard would it be to just devote a team to fixing the issuse the community has for a week or two? Honestly. Make wow great again.


(Masoschism) #110

The Good
I really like the zones, they have a great feel. The Alliance pirate theme is pretty awesome to me. The Horde side is also engaging. There is some nice xmog gear. The leveling story line was very engaging and compelling to me. The first time through was the first time I have read quest text since I had to actually read quest text to figure out where to go (10+ years?). The Cut scenes are also engaging. The raids have been pretty fun.

The Bad
They have made 3 major design errors in the current game, starting with WoD. I mean there are other changes they made that have disrupted the social fabric of the game, but that’s a different issue than the purely mechanical ones I will talk about.


Classes

After 14 years the classes are complete sh*t. Every single expansion had better classes. Vanilla classes had some serious issues, and played worse than BfA in a lot of ways, but they were rich with situational and interesting abilities. It made for excellent skill gaps, which made for excellent incentive to master your class. With each expansion the classes kept getting better and better all the way up until MoP, with a couple exceptions where certain specs were more well liked in WotLK.

The Prune
WoD was when they started removing things from baseline. That was a HUGE mistake, and we lost a lot of situational richness in the specs. That doesn’t mean that every single pruning decision was bad. I can name a few that were good (only a few), but overall it was the very worst decision this games designers have ever made. Legion doubled down on the pruning by removing even more things from baseline. Some they added back in, or added back in as talents after numerous complaints.

Baseline Destruction
The thought that taking baseline, functional parts of the spec and putting them into talents was a good idea makes absolutely no sense to me. All they did effectively was to reduce our total number of talent rows by one just to keep that core functionality we had since Vanilla. It is mind boggling that ANYONE was on board with that idea. And they did it numerous times. The most commonly taken talents for MM hunter for example has 3 out of 7 talent rows that were formerly baseline. There are two other talent rows with talents that were also formerly baseline, but they were implemented so poorly that no one can take them. Still, there are many threads made about fixing them so they can be taken because that core functionality is missed.

Legion made up for its class amputations, at least for some classes, with the weapons and legendaries. That was absolutely awful design, but the way at least some specs played in Legion was decent, even if it lacked in the richness of previous iterations. But then BFA took that all away then stripped EVEN MORE!!! things from baseline, and then added some back in as talents as the complaints, once again, rolled in.


Gear

I won’t get into the gear because its too off topic, but imo BfA is by far the worst the gearing system has ever been, EVER.


Mythic+

Mythic+ is imo a mythic level failure in game design. Incentivising speed runs, instead of hard runs, where you have to think your way through the dungeon is a huge design flaw. We used to have dungeons where we had to use CC wisely and tax your class’s situational abilities. It took a lot of skill to be successful in some dungeons. Sure M+ is fun because it’s challenging to beat the timer, but its largely just a DPS race, and STRONGLY separates the classes out into the “have’s” and the “have not’s” with regard to certain “strengths.”

TBC heroic Shattered Halls sticks out in my mind as one of the best dungeons in the game. So many pats you had to pay attention to, so many difficult pulls. So many opportunities for wipes, no AoE pulls, just thinking your way through the dungeon for the well earned reward at the end.


Tl;DR

So BfA has the worst classes, the worst gearing system, and the awful M+ system to rule them all. Typing this up makes me both angry and sad.

What a truly awful thing they have done to all the people that made such great art and story.


Classic

I am looking forward to Classic, but several of the class trees were so bad with some seriously wonky mehanics (must feign death to trap, must get a killing blow with Drain Soul to get a shard, etc.). Some of the gearing was ridiculous, with no upgrade through several tiers for some specs because of bad mechanics. Basic gear scaling for some classes was also abysmal. So its far from a perfect transition. Regardless, I will play either a Warlock or Mage and avoid all those issues. I will stay in Classic and completely give up on BfA unless they do something drastic.


(Beefköw) #111

I agree with you for the most part regarding the theme of horde vs alliance.

BFA theme sounded very promising because my love for orcs vs humans started back in W2, battle for azeroth. Again, sounded great.

With that being said, none of what I just said matters or is relevant because my character is garbage and unplayable, in terms of mind numbing boring rotations and getting nothing new, it’s just frustrating.

I cannot stress this enough, my character comes first before content. WOD is a huge example of this, content was trash, Asharan was flawed and boring, and afk garrison concept was probably one of the worst decisions acti-blizz has done, right next to selfie cam patch.

But guess what, my class was playable and it was fun. Multistrike was a fun stat and running around killing mobs was great. Probably one of the first times since classic I decided to do mythic raiding.

I would play classic, but the problem was you had to invest a good amount of time into the game to be one of the top tier players. 40 man raids and each boss dropped 2-3 pieces of loot? NOPE. That was just one example though.


(Masoschism) #112

I completely agree with this, or I should say, I feel the exact same way. I really enjoyed WoD because my class (MM Hunter) played really well. In fact the all time best possible MM hunter (my favorite class/spec) is imo WoD without the prune.


(Xaedys) #113

The weird part is, they have everything they need to fix this. The dungeons already require a minimum amount of trash to be killed. What they need to do is add in a lot more variety of trash, with some being AoE focused, some being single-target focused, and all of it requiring different approaches, with very little that can be accomplished as simply “round up 2-3 packs and zerg them while the tank kites”.

Make mobs spam snares, yanks, and teleports to discourage kiting. Make packs have nasty synergies where if both X and Y mob are un-CC’d, the pack becomes massively deadlier or nearly unkillable. Force the use of CC. But alongside that, add in tougher lieutenant-type mobs that are worth entire packs of %, but take a similar level of effort to counter and take down. Add a bunch of alternative paths to the instance, ways of avoiding the trash (probably make these only available on M+ and/or have trash mobs in those alternative paths that aren’t present in M+ to discourage skipping everything in non-timed runs). Give groups a ton of flexibility about how to tackle the dungeon. Do they rely on their CC and take down the AoE packs? Do they rely on their other utility and take down the lieutenants? Which packs do they skip and which do they take on?

I mean, not only would that make M+ massively more fun and engaging and strategic, but it would make the MDI a lot more fun to watch as well. Currently, everyone just takes basically the same route through these instances, because excepting a few dungeons, there only is one path. The only variance is when they use their Shrouds etc. Which, on that note, making skipping built in, to the point where you can easily get to and kill every single boss without pulling anywhere close to 100% trash, would massively reduce the utility of Shroud, something that is so desperately needed right now.


Edit: I’d also like to see some creative additions to the timer system. Add pick-ups that are well-hidden and often guarded, but that reduce the timer of the instance by a bit, so if you hunt for them and grab them, it can actually more than offset the time spent searching for them (but only if you optimize that search and getting them properly). Add in effects (pick ups, bonuses for killing certain trash, whatever) that give the group a “free” death, where someone that dies can instantly rez themselves (ala soulstone, except without consuming a BR charge) and the death doesn’t cost time. Add things that reduce the BR cooldown. Add nodes that can be triggered to restore group mana and/or health rapidly for a short duration.

I mean, basically, take Court of Stars as an example. The nodes were RNG (kinda bad), and were tied to professions and races (definitely bad), but they added variation to the runs, and seeking them out and using them properly could significantly change the landscape of the run. Using them felt clever and fun. Those are a mechanic I really wish they’d kept and iterated heavily on (ie. removed profession/racial focus, etc).