@Blizzard (Done enough PVP to see the problem)

PVP Battlegrounds
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The problems is too glaring, not just 1 class, but all classes are a problem.

#1 Mail, Plate, Cloth, Leather matters none anymore. (Debate me)

#2 Killing Blows are 30% what they were years ago in the PVP system.

#3 Killing Blows are like that because each class has too much survival and healing, even with my undergeared a** returning to the game a week ago, my biggest attack seemingly does nothing to any class, I can imagine what arenas are like.

#4 Too much CC, endless stuns, and the global cool down resets or durations has PVP in a ridiculous mess.

#5 Range has too much power, least some time back a Plate class like Warrior or Pally could run into a horde of enemies and survive for a minute, now they blown up like they got hit by a bomb, most in part of how too bursty range classes are. (anyone know what the class makeup of arenas are at top 10%?)

#6 PVP gear is not scaling up to where it needs to be, PVE players should have advantage to some extent with gear in PVP, but its too much right now, 40 iLVL difference is good game for lesser geared. PVP Gear should be scaled to a decent level where the player can compete in PVE dungeons if they choose to go PVE route for brief time. (concept that worked back in the day also).

#7 Bring back talent trees, make each player and class unique or at least try to, PVP is unfun because every class is using the same 3-4 attacks in rotation and same 3-4 OH! BS! buttons for survival. I also notice (Target needs to be in front of you) is something that has started lacking in many PVP instances as well.

Anyone got something to add?

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Yea and this means that BGs aren’t as fun. If a BG ends and no one has over 10 KB’s it’s a waste of time. At least it isn’t as bad as Legion with it’s templates and other massive problems. With corruption people can at least global people still but when geared teams face each other it’s just not fun cause nothing dies from everyone being tanky and healing.

Players really should be over 20 KBs and even have 30 or 40 KBs in Epic games.

Yea they need to remove healing from Dps again to have unique gameplay. They need to make bandages important again for classes that don’t have healing and most importantly remove the 3rd wind potion from BGs. Everyone can heal for too much and has to many defensives then they have this 50% heal that is just too OP ruining the PvP experience.

They also need to remove scaling in PvP as it just muddies the water.

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dks > paladins

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You know something.

I wont disagree as my Death Knight was my main for years after this toon and i did as much if not more in pvp than i ever could with my Paladin.

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#1. Why do you think that is the case?

#2. Killing Blows is not a good gauge for the health or stability of PvP. PvP in BGs doesn’t precisely mean killing your enemy, it means battling an enemy team in order to win the match. KBs is just a result of someones HP reaching zero. You can win a match with relatively little KBs overall. It does feel good to see lots of KBs on the scoreboard at the end, but are KBs all that great if you’re still losing or not having fun with the fight itself?

#3. I would agree that a lot of the self healing needs to be brought down but defensives cannot be reduced too much. When enemy uses a big DPS CD we need a way to counter that (outside of CC). We don’t want fights lasting deep into dampening but we also don’t want fights ending too abruptly because we have no way to avoid a warriors swifty macro.

#4. A great deal of the counterplay capability in PvP exists through CC. And while CC can seem ridiculous from a 1v1 or 1vX situation we have to remember that PvP is designed around a team focus. When you are stunned it is your teams job to support you through that. If you are slowed/snared/whatever it is your teams job to support you through that as well. Battlegrounds magnify the perception of insane amounts of CC because you have 20+ people (more in Epics) throwing CC out everywhere.

#5. We could just flip this around and say that if ranged get caught in a melee train then they will get blown up too. Using people out of position as an example of the power of ranged doesn’t really work. Melee has burst at least as powerful as ranged. Melee are also quite well equipped to stay onto ranged with the most noticeable exception being slippery mages. It is rare that I, as a rogue, have trouble keeping on ranged. You as a pally have freedom buffs and in-combat horsey, warriors have charges and leaps, druids have wild charge combined with roots, DH is DH, DKs… well RIP DK if grip is down.

#6. PvE players should not have an advantage to any extent. Nor should PvP players have the advantage. There’s no reason that it needs to be an either/or situation. Blizzard has the capability to put PvP gear on par with PvE. That this is not the case is a conscious choice on the part of Blizzard. The ideal scenario is that players have multiple avenues to pursue the gear that they want and then when entering instanced PvP that gear equalizes to a set range, preferably higher rather than lower so that the stats you build around are not lowered to irrelevance. Crazy gear disparity is all well and fun in WPvP, but instanced competitive PvP should not be gear dependent.

#7. Talent trees didn’t offer any more uniqueness than what we have now. There was always a meta build or spec. If you didn’t run a specific talent tree then you were suboptimal, period. Just like it is now. The reality about games like WoW is that there will always be a “better” build, and if we deviate from that build then we are just not as good. I think that is both the goal and yet also the curse of the borrowed power systems that Blizz has been so fond of over the past several years. These systems are essentially new/different talent trees which intend to offer new build customization, but a meta build is often quickly determined.

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Right now you’re dealing with the same issue I had when I came back. The difference between iLvl is staggering. You start off at about 400 iLvl and by the time you’re at 445 iLvl your HP doubles (I went from 200k to 400k) and your damage output goes up by a lot. You’re almost like a liability in battlegrounds until you farm enough to get up to at least 460 iLvl.

You can get there though. I did it.

Killing blows are less impactful than they used to be because healers get shafted on that department. Most BGs you earn a certain amount of HKs every 10-15s I’ve seen so you’ll end up with like 50 HKs at the end of a round even though you only killed 20 of the opposite faction.

Classes are too standardized now. There’s less uniqueness or one specific class that hard-counters another.

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So if 10 teammates each have 9 KBs, it’s a waste of time? The players on the other team died 90 times.

…

You play a geared prot pally in random bgs…

They need to remove damage from tanks too.

You can also have fun matches with relatively few KBs overall. Sometimes, you have hectic games where everyone is rushing around trying to control stuff or grab stuff and there aren’t as many HKs.

1 Like
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lately i’ve been watching a lot of aircraft videos on youtube, stuff on like how ww2 fighters were made and there is a phrase that comes up over and over again in all these mini docs: “to further enhance its capability”

what does that mean? it could mean mounting a 50 cal machine gun to the side of a huey “to further enhance its air to ground attack capability”

did that suddenly make it an attack helicopter on par with the AH-1 or AH-54? of course not, but it did help the huey in its mission.

players go looking for the imba clutch build and forget the nuances of tweaking their class, maybe you take a talent here to further enhance your ranged capability, maybe you take one here to further enhance your survival capability, the point is your talents should be used to further enhance based on your needs, not to just plug in the current build some site or streamer tells you to go with.

one issue with meta builds is they are only powerful in their given context, an arena build is not as good in a epic as a epic build, and neither build is good for small bgs.

when people say “what is the best pvp build for my class” we could have 6-10 different answers if we wanted to get accurate, but instead you will usually see only the arena build.

thinking about it, there isnt a viable solution simply because people are people:
when ranking sports cars, a 5 year old ranks them by top speed, a 20 year old ranks them by horse power and 0-60 times, a 40 year old ranks them by fun to drive factor, and a 60 year old ranks them by comfort.

“meta” depends on who you ask.

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I will reiterate killing blows is not the be all end all of a bg. Back in vanilla or tbc i could have 30 KB in Arathi Basin and still lose. But it was a good indicator of who to watch out for and their was far less survival abilities for escape which is pretty rampant in todays pvp. The idea the Killing Blow chart is so weak shows classes are surviving way more than they should. Even in epic 40 mans ive seen top KB chart by games end be less than 15.

Last night we was in the temple bg with a DH doing 12m damage in 1 go in the middle and killed NO ONE. Its insanity.

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Best PvP was TBC/Wrath when people were nuking each other. We want PvP like that. Where there was class identity. It’s good PvP when we see both teams with over 20-30KBs for 1 person. Or even people reaching 40KBs. Healing is a massive issue compared to when PvP was at it’s best in TBC/Wrath.

Yes that is the class identity I love and there isn’t anything wrong with that so stop acting like there is. It’s annoying let that meme die thanks. Been Prot since TBC and it’s why I play WoW. If I can’t play Prot there is no reason to play because to me Prot is a classic PvP spec. Nothing better than sword and board PvP and before WoW that is what I played for 8 years in another game.

Why are you against people playing what they love. It’s there for a reason.

Prot and PvP was the best when Tanks did massive damage. When they could be specced into Shield Slam globaling people with shield block value and armor pen. It was good PvP and Iconic. It need to be buffed.

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You complain PvP isn’t fun when players don’t die.

Yet, you play a prot pally, so you’re even more tanky and even less likely to die.

Furthermore, you want to do massive damage as a tank.

To sum up, PvP is fun when other players die, but you don’t.

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Correct that is insanity. It’s okay for stuff to die and healing and defensives need a big nerf as well as getting rid of 3rd wind potion that will help a lot. It feels bad when you burst and stuff somehow keeps living. We got Dps even healing healers. That is gross.

It doesn’t matter what I play or even if I am playing the game. So what I play is irrelevant. Stop making this about me instead of the problem :rofl: That isn’t how you have a discussion. The problem still remains that there is Waaaaaaaaay to much healing and defensives in the game. That Dps don’t and healers don’t die fast enough for glaring reasons that keep getting listed.

Keep focus on the problem instead of what I am doing.

If you remove healing from Dps and have squishy specs again where there is class identity PvP will in fact be better again. Key word again. PvP was better when there were class roles and everyone wasn’t a super tank with healing and if you deny that then I don’t know what to say.

This isn’t about what someone is playing this is about what is wrong and class homogenization leading to less KBs and bad PvP.

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Prot has a place in pvp. Some may not agree with it but its more critical than most think. Especially epic bgs.

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Sure, I just think there’s some irony when someone complains that it’s not fun when players don’t die while they’re playing a tank spec to be extra sure that they don’t die. Then, they also advocate that tanks should do massive damage in PvP.

I guess Blizzard might be able to increase the number of players who play tank specs by turning them into invulnerable killing machines in PvP.

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There is no irony… It doesn’t matter what I am playing. That doesn’t fix the problem which many players have clearly stated. What I play isn’t what is wrong with PvP :rofl:

Let me reiterate what the problem is.

Rogues don’t die fast enough
Mages don’t die fast enough
Warriors don’t die fast enough
Paladins don’t die fast enough
Locks don’t die fast enough
Demon hunters don’t die fast enough
Hunters don’t die fast enough
Monks don’t die fast enough
Death Knights don’t die fast enough
Healers don’t die fast enough

Now we can break down why that is the case and it has to to with everyone doing everything. However “The Problem” is what the OP was talking about. It’s a problem. They need to gut healing and many defensives so we have class roles.

If two Dps are in a 1v1 it should be pretty quick fight because both Dps don’t have healing and likely the better player that uses CC correctly and gets off a bandage or burst will win. That is good PvP.

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“Nerf everyone but me”

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I agree totally. Buff shamans!

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ͨ ᴼ ᴿ ᴿ ᵁ ᴾ ᵀ ᴵ ᴼ ᴺ ˢ

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Buff Priests, Shamans, and Druids!

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No they don’t die fast enough.

What we need to do is remove healing from most Dps specs and tone down defensives so CC is used as a defensive like it should be. Then we step away from the PvE rotation where everyone has everything and just uses CC offensively.

It’s bad design.

You guys do realize it is okay for a Class/Spec to be squishy.
It is okay for some specs to have NO healing.
It is okay for class/specs to be unique.

We also need to address way to much mobility in the game for everyone too. 100% uptime is also bad.