Blizz is going to Nerf Outlaw again

Classes Rogue
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I feel it in my bones.

Blade Flurry is just too good of an AoE ability, even without taking improvement talents because our single target abilities ARE AoE abilities.

Which is a tragedy because I was starting to like Find Weakness + Ghostly Strike as a pseudo Expose Armor. Ambush Criticals were a very nice icing on top of a glorious Crowd Control and Dispatch cake.

I think they’re going to nerf the :poop: out of Sinister Strike, Opportunity Shots, Ambush, and probably reduce Blade Flurry to a three-mob cleave.

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Don’t give them ideas!

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Wrong! But thanks for playing

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I do a lot of mythic plus dungeons. There are a lot of classes performing very well in AOE situations. DH, DK, Evoker, WW, MM, ENH, Arcane, Lock, Shadow Priest, etc. The list goes on, I find it’s our sustain in AOE situations that allow us to even be competitive over the course of a dungeon.

I can list a bunch of AOE heavy dungeons but one that really stands out is academy. Some classes are pulling 300-400k on the tree boss. With our cap it takes me nearly the whole dungeon to make up ground.

I prefer that every class has a chance to be number one based on skill. It’s my feeling that outlaw takes a LOT of work to play. It really wears you out at the end of a dungeon. We should do good damage if our rotations and CD management is good. Otherwise, why not play a two button class. There needs to be a payoff for the complexity of a class. I am sick of seeing classes, and I have played them as alts being so damn easy to play blowing the damage meters up. What’s the incentive to work twice as hard with lower results?

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Couldn’t agree with the alt sentiment more. I finally just started playing fotm classes in SL instead of my usual mains because I got tired of just getting deleted in pvp from burst classes or struggling in m+ while other classes just demolished the meters. Hitting 1800 on arms warrior was stupid easy competitively.

Playing rogue feels like a pretty good dps payoff for the amount of on the fly decisions. Unlike other classes, a kidney shot is going to cost me a global AND about 50k in damage of combo points. That adds up over the course of a run if we’re actively CCing.

The tree boss is an outlier but I feel like most of the dungeon pulls are in the 4-6 mob range and we have a sweet spot because our aoe is capped.

I play subtlety but I’ve dabbled in combat on my other toon. We’re not seeing rogues run away with 40%+/- the next highest dps in a dungeon like survival was with literally just spamming bombs on CD.

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It’s your choice to play a more complicated spec if you enjoy the complexity, that’s the reward. There will never be a time when what you want happens. People already start riots when blizz tries to balance and fails. There’s zero chance they create a situation where they tell people “well if you like x class’s theme and look, get used to never being the best because we designed it to be less complicated”. That’s a sure way to kill a game overnight.

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In life, when you work harder, you get rewarded. People don’t like that mindset because most people are lazy and want the most out of life with little effort. However, they have a choice. Work hard and be rewarded or don’t and don’t get rewarded.

Either way I don’t care, it’s a game. I would love to see a hard spec that is complex and does the most damage for every class. Each class has the potential to be number one in DPS based on skill and complexity.

The reward isn’t the complexity. I can see it now at work lol, hey bud, I need you to work 18 hours a day…Am going to make crazy money? NOOO, you get to be here for 18 hours, that’s your reward. Working hard, and feeling good. Gratz bud!

The reward is being number one in damage from mastering a difficult class IMO. Either way, it’s a game.

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This is all you needed to say. You can’t go on to compare it to real life jobs as if they’re even in the same ballpark. I mean trying to compare enjoying a complex rotation in a video game to being asked to work overtime is just stupid, plain and simple. I can’t believe you said that and expected to be taken seriously.

You said more than once you don’t care, it’s just a game, but this statement betrays that sentiment

It obviously bothers you. You’ll feel a lot better if you ever get to the point where you say you are and actually don’t care.

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I can have strong feelings or be passionate about something and not be bothered by it. Don’t confuse the two. And yes, I can compare it to work if I chose to. I believe they do relate. I am sorry YOU feel as though that is “stupid”. That sounds immature of you.

Having led and managed hundreds, if not thousands of people successfully, I feel I have a good idea of how things should work. At the end of my career I saw it a lot with the newer generation coming in. It was all about what can you do for ME. I grew up in a time that was more about what can I do for you.

Growing up was all about work hard, get rewarded, don’t work hard, don’t get rewarded. I had people that worked for me, that didn’t want to work, and they weren’t very successful. Why should it be in different in this game? I am interested to know? Do you really think, the person that doesn’t put the work in (because it’s not required) should get the same reward as the person playing a complex class, with complex rotations? I love rogue, but it feels like work keeping everything going. Vice playing DH, WW, or DK. All VERY easy for me to get mass DPS out with little effort. I am sure there are others, but I don’t play them. Even my evoker is a joke to get damage out. I can almost produce the same DPS on an under geared evoker as I can on a well geared rogue.

I personally believe there is a fundamental flaw with this design. I see the game like this… Log in for the very first time, there is a list of classes. Melee, Ranged, Healer, Tank. A complex tree will net you great results, a moderate tree would net you average results and an easy tree would net you results. All very close, but the complex rotation should get the greatest gain.

I say this out of respect for your opinion, and in no way to demean you. I am only stating my opinion and how I feel. That doesn’t make me stupid or wrong.

NOTE: As I read this back, I was even thinking about this in the context of sports. If you’re not willing to put in the work, chances are you won’t do very well. There are exceptions for sure, like anything. People love sports, it’s a GAME! RIGHT??!? A game??? Yet, if I apply myself and work hard, there will be a reward for that hard work. Why should the person that didn’t do their gym work, running work, and nutrition net the same results as me?

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Because it’s a game, a leisure activity. It is by definition the exact opposite of work. It’s really that simple. You keep trying to compare it to things that just aren’t the same. You will never convince most people that they should have to treat a game like a job to succeed.

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I played sports, those are games. Chess is a game, poker is a game. The one thing all these games have in common is they all require “work” or “effort” to be successful.

NO worries at all if you don’t want to be top damage or clear mythic raids. I do, and I am willing to put in the time and effort to be successful. My point is, why should I have to put in twice as much effort as another to yield the same result? Shouldn’t effort = results?

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Again, your comparisons just don’t work. People choose classes for all sorts of reasons and people that choose a certain class shouldn’t have to accept a penalty because of the degree of complexity blizzard decides to incorporate into a spec.

You don’t. You can play the same specs that you consider so easy to get results on. You choose not to. You don’t then get to put yourself at a higher value that’s more deserving.

Id also like to add, if you want competition with other people there’s pvp, or games like fps where you can flex your button pushing. That isn’t what separates players in mmo’s in the pve arena. We are all working towards the same goal in pve and the dueling meters outlook on the game is, dare i say, a really toxic mentality.

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They will probably hard nerf HO build and lower blade flurry target cap.

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We will never fundamentally agree. This goes far beyond the game.

Just to be clear, my comparisons don’t work for YOU. They make perfect sense to me. You don’t have to attack others to get your view across. It’s okay to have different opinions and not be wrong about something. Because it’s your opinion, does not make it right…or wrong. It makes it your opinion. I don’t want riots or my house burnt down for my opinion :joy: .

For example, you could say, “Again, your comparisons just don’t work (for me).” “(I) choose classes for all sorts of reasons, and (I) choose a certain class, and shouldn’t have to accept a penalty because of the degree of complexity blizzard decides to incorporate into a spec.”

What penalty are we talking about here? IMO you should be rewarded for level of effort? Otherwise, why raid? Why do mythic plus? Why quest? Why do anything in this game if it’s handed to you. And yes, making a class do a significant amount of damage for little to no effort is getting it handed to you.

Damage meters are AWESOME!! I LOVE being rewarded from my hard work and watching it pay off. I don’t want to assume, but based on your comment, you aren’t fond of meters. I say, then it does not matter if a class is OP or not, you wouldn’t mind if rogues were doubling your damage. If there are no meters, who cares, just play what you like. Even in games like FFXIV and ESO, meters are frowned upon. However, all I ever see is, “What class is the strongest?” “Who is FOTM” "How OP is X class? Even in those games, people pushing the limits are using meters.

Just so we’re clear, I play all classes. Rogue is my main. :wink: If you go back and read my post, you’ll see that I believe each class should have varying degrees of difficulty. Played at a high level, every class should have the same opportunity to top DPS. If the rotations are difficult and complex, your damage should reflect that.

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Because they aren’t logical conclusions.

I’m not attacking you, calm down. It can be my OPINION that you’re wrong, and i can say so without it being an “attack”.

Yes but you’re definition of effort is incredibly narrow if you’re limiting that to rotational complexity.

Because they’re fun activities. I would have thought that was obvious. If your motivation is to be top dps, great! If it’s to get the gear at the end, fine! Some people, me included, do them because we enjoy them. Your motivation isn’t the only or “correct” motivation. Thus some people play more complex classes simply because they enjoy the complexity and may not be motivated by anything further.

You should have gone with your gut not to. I love meters and i love seeing myself at the top. I’ve just never looked at my spec of choice’s rotation complexity to be a factor in that. I either like the rotation and decide to play it and excel or i don’t like it and i pass on it.

Yea but the top ones are using them to improve, not to flex on their teammates. That’s a lower level thing.

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You can state your opinion and not be right…or wrong. It’s your opinion. When you tell someone what they think or feel is flat out wrong without facts to support it, your attacking that person. You can have an opinion without telling someone they are “stupid” or “wrong”.

Just state your opinion and let others make their own decision. My kids are all college age now but something I taught them very young.

Where did I say I was flexing at people about meters? This was your assumption?

[quote=“Fantasma-hellscream, post:12, topic:1472319”]
We are all working towards the same goal in pve and the dueling meters outlook on the game is, dare i say, a really toxic mentality.
[/quote] Sorry if I misconstrued this statement.

[quote=“Fantasma-hellscream, post:15, topic:1472319”]
You should have gone with your gut not to. I love meters and i love seeing myself at the top. [/quote]

I am VERY competitive whether people know it or not. I rarely talk to anyone in game, but you bet I beat myself up if I am not performing, that goes for ANY area of my life. Professional, fitness, gaming, education, athletics, etc. I remember in college I worked really hard for a 4.0. People used to say all the time, why are you doing that. All people care about is the piece of paper that says degree. I can’t tell you how many times, a high GPA was required in my career to further my education or move up.

We all measure success differently, in this context, I believe those putting in the work, should be rewarded…period. A complex rotation is well…complex…An easy rotation is… at its essence is easy. One thing is worked for, the other is given.

We were talking about rogue and blade flurry getting nerfed. I have said enough, so this is my last reply, but I don’t think rogue or any complex class should get nerfed. I think all classes should have a difficult and complex spec to play within their class. Complex and difficult specs should outperform easy ones. Just like in life, those working hard should be rewarded. Those that don’t want to put in effort or work hard, shouldn’t. Just my opinion. I get it, people want to play a game to let their hair down and relax. Not stress about rotations, complexity, damage meters, and achievement. I am cool with that. This game is for them… There are those that want complex classes, rotations etc. but also want there to be a reward for it. This game is also for them. Look, both groups can be happy! Yay!

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If people’s ability to perform a rotation well is solely based on how hard they work on it I’d agree with you. As that’s not reality, i can’t get work you on that.

But ultimately our two opinions aside, my original statement was saying it won’t happen. Whatever merit you think you’re argument has, I’d be willing to bet a large sum of money that your vision for complex rotations to be what decides their place on the meters will never come to pass.

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I can’t believe you think braindead classes should do as much damage as classes that are 10x harder to play and expect to be taken seriously…

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I don’t have to be taken seriously. Blizzard has clearly planted their flag, I’m simply agreeing.

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Yeah, there are definitely never specs that are secretly OP but fly under the radar because the average player sucks at them…