BGs, Premades, and Queues

TL;DR – I think BGs would benefit from a queue system that matches grouped players (premades) against other grouped players, and solo players against other solo players. If you feel the same way, I encourage you submit a suggestion in-game (click Help Request > Submit a Suggestion).

Longer Version –

I frequently see posts on these forums asking for changes in ways that aren’t the most constructive. If you take a look at the “Submit Suggestion” ticket in-game, it asks for three things: 1) Which part of the gameplay is your suggestion about? 2) What specific problem are you trying to fix? 3) How do you think this could be improved in a fun and fair way? I’d like to start a constructive conversation along those lines.

1. What part of the gameplay is your suggestion about?

BGs

2. What specific problem are you trying to fix?

Organized players (premades) fighting unorganized players (solo) creates an unequal playing field that sometimes results in players not being able to actively participate in BGs. This scenario occurs when the organized players box the opposing team into a single graveyard/point, preventing them from trying for objectives.

I’m going to avoid commenting on how frequently this situation occurs, since none of us really know. We only have our own anecdotal experiences to go on. It happens enough to be a discussion point, and I think there is one thing we should all be able to agree on: everyone should be able to participate in a BG.

3. How do you think this could be improved in a fun and fair way?

I think this could be improved by a queue system that matches grouped players against other grouped players, and solo players against other solo players. I think this would satisfy the requirements of being both “fun” and “fair” as it would allow everyone to actively participate in the BG (fun) and match players against other players who are similarly organized (fair).

This would be similar to what some other online games have done. For example, in DotA2 the matchmaking system places grouped players against other grouped players of the same number (or as close to it as possible) and fills in the remaining spots with solo players as necessary.

Thanks for reading. If you feel the same way – make a suggestion in-game!

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Excellent thread and well written. If pugs simply quit queueing for a week or 2 tops you would see a whole world come crumbling down because of how much the system would crash around these types taking advantage of the system that has been proven to be ill for many many years.

Queue all the trollls that have nothing better to do then make pointless posts with no real discussion on the topic.

Its especially hard on ANY newer players that weren’t here raiding the first 5 or so months as people are running around in T2 likes its a requirement to even do anything. On that note i see alot more horde in pugs that have leveled up ect but when it comes to alliance 90% are easily t1 plus.

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4. No changes

No changes, thank you.

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I agree. I think if you are queueing 5 or less it should be solo/pug and 6+ is premade only.

That way you can still queue with a small grp of friends

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The premaders HPH would still hypothetically be a bit higher than the pug v pug groups so long as they actually had the super serious perfect comp teams they aim to build. Things would definitely be improved for the vast majority of players.

It won’t happen, though. I’m just happy to know that most of these guys I’ve fought in premades will be stuck at 1600 mmr in arena when TBC comes out, because it’s easy to see that most of them are really bad players. Slow response times, bad predictions, backpedaling, abusing pots, barely winning fights with multiple pocket heals; it’s pretty pathetic and highlights how poorly the honor system was designed, particularly when cross realm is taken into consideration.

I submitted a suggestion, and yes… Most of the premade players are garbage 1v1. Arena will put an end to it.

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OP, how is it remotely fair that more organized groups aren’t guaranteed more honor per hour than less organized groups?

I’d be all for your suggestion if solo players took a bonus honor penalty that effectively prevented them from getting to honor brackets 14/13, but that is not what you want. You want tryhard rewards without being a tryhard yourself.

DOTA 2 has an Elo system. Classic doesn’t, and it is an MMORPG.

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plays massively multiplayer game.
believes 1v1 shows most skill.

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I think this is a really good question, and something I’ve been thinking about. So thank you for asking!

For some context, I did the grind to R13 in vanilla. Here’s the link to the achievement on my profile for hitting Field Marshall in 2010. I’m only pointing this out to highlight that I’m familiar with how the PvP system works, the honor grind, and what it means to earn those rewards.

I think there are two separate issues here. The ability for everyone to participate in a BG (as discussed in my original post) and the fairness of the honor system/rewards. I think as players we should really focus our suggestions on the first issue (the ability to participate), as the second issue (the honor system) is what we signed up for when we decided to play the game.

In my view, the honor system isn’t perfect - but no PvP system is. Arenas, ranked BGs, MMR, ELO - they all have different pros and cons. A big part of what makes Classic WoW classic is its imperfections - like the honor system.

So, back to your question of “how is it fair that more organized groups aren’t guaranteed more honor per hour?” Well, the more organized groups are guaranteed more honor! They’re going to continue to make the most honor because they’re going to win the most. The difference is that they’re going to be fighting other premades. And when fighting other premades, the better your premade, the more you win - and the more you win, the more honor you get.

A solo player is not going to win BGs nearly as often as a well put together premade. So, premades will continue to be on the top of the stack.

That said, premades that aren’t as well organized will have a harder time than they do now, since they’ll be matched other premades instead of pugs. But I don’t think that’s necessarily bad thing - it means those premades will have to try harder to win. And as you said - you don’t get “tryhard rewards” without trying hard!

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Oh look the druid started another spam thread.
#nomorechanges

totally agree, have submitted suggestion. it baffles me why blizzard hasn’t made action on this major issue with classic at the moment

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I dont think thats entirely true, if you separate the queues it basically turns premade vs premade into RBGs (which from a fun perspective sounds great!) However, most of those games will probably be fought tooth and nail, 3 base vs 2 base ABs, roughly a 30+ min game, or WSGs that could potentially last hours. I feel like if this was the case, the “role over and let them win to move on” strat would become a lot more frequent, and would open the gates up for botters to get higher standings in the brackets. There are already people playing during the day and botting at night getting close to 1 mil honor a week solo… so

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I finally ended up in a Premade today Horde. I was the only odd man out. We matched up with an ALLY premade. What do you think happened. THE ALLY DIDNT COME OUT. They ducked us. This is what happens premade vs premade. Fix the game Blizzard.

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9/10 Bg’s as a solo q are premades and basically last 2-4 minutes. Seems like a fix is in order. At least match the healers per team…

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“Well, the more organized groups are guaranteed more honor! They’re going to continue to make the most honor because they’re going to win the most. The difference is that they’re going to be fighting other premades. And when fighting other premades, the better your premade, the more you win - and the more you win, the more honor you get.”

Game theory says that within a week the only premade getting more honor than pugs is THE BEST premade in the battlegroup.

It goes further and says the entire premade system dies within a week if average premades don’t get MUCH more honor than average pugs.

Here’s what is going to happen if you separate the queues and don’t give premades more bonus honor than pugs:

The average premade player, because he gets less honor than the average pug player, quits and joins the pug queue.

The premade queue gets a bit more competitive, and a slightly more hardcore premade player becomes the average premade player. Because he now earns less honor/hour than pugs, he join the pug queue.

Repeat for a few days and the entire system collapses. And the only way to make that not happen is by giving premades additional bonus honor for being in the premade queue. You need to aim for average pug honor for trade chat premades.

Players are supposed to be rewarded for grouping up, and those who have BETTER premades get rewarded more. Basically the system we have now but without the current pug stomping by premades, and without forcing pugs to grind for 10 hours a day for rank 11.

I agree - it would make premade versus premade more competitive and fun! I also agree with you, close games would be more common. However, I don’t think it will be so common as to be the case for every game. Some premades will be better than others. Instead, I think it will be more akin to pug versus pug games now - sometimes it’s a very close fight, and sometimes one team has the upper hand.

On the subject of the “roll over and let them win to move on” strategy - that wouldn’t work if you’re only fighting other premades, since there’s no pug waiting in the queue for a premade to eventually get matched with.

pft you can casually get 11 just playing BG weekends.

This. The person you replied to said “tryhard rewards without trying hard” except MOST premades now are getting tryhard rewards without trying hard. What youre proposing would actually limit the number of people who actually attain ranks higher than 12 because you would have to actually dare i say it BE GOOD AT PVP TO GET THERE.