BFA Unholy Death Knight Feedback (Cont.)


(Tyfus) #161
knowing the fights, gearing, or setting up a UI is not the same as knowing to pool runes or hold back on a spell in order to do better a few globals from now. nor is the experience of knowing that RP spending this global instead of rune spending is going to smooth out your rotation allowing for overall higher dps. there's a reason good DKs don't have much for gaps in their rotation and bad DKs are professional thumb twiddlers.


What you're describing still falls under fight knowledge. Pooling resources for the right situation depends on knowing the fights. It is not a skill that's unique to Unholy and certainly is not made any more interesting/complex through the wound system.

but i do agree we have less depth in spell interaction than we used to, but it is has changed to on the fly spell selection decision.


That's the real issue. We don't necessarily need a lot of buttons, but our existing buttons should tie into one another in interesting ways. Our talents should expand on this further. Something like Unholy Blight that literally has no relation to any aspect of our rotation other than damage, feels very very lazy.

11/12/2018 01:00 PMPosted by Paint
Okay. Defensive ability idea. We need a damage absorb that applies damage taken into a phantom self you can summon. let’s say a 4-5 second window of absorb all incoming damage, and in return it applies 70% of total damage absorbed through damage, by your whisp/phantom to the attacker over 15 seconds. Also, if you dont absorb at least 40% of max health when this is active you instead gain a haste buff/(no phantom summoned). (New Talent) (Soul Splinter). The model for this would be a dark purple figure of the player, with green outline on the weapon.


I don't think we necessarily need new buttons, just an improvement to our base defenses/skills. Baking in the artifact trait that reduced our AoE damage taken would be great and reversing some of the many nerfs to AMS's absorb/CD.

If they want to give us some new interactions, maybe things like if AMS does/doesn't pop then we can Dark Succor proc or a lowered CD. Perhaps something that lowers IBF CD based on wounds or VP eruptions.

(Inemia) #162
11/12/2018 02:26 PMPosted by Tyfus
What you're describing still falls under fight knowledge. Pooling resources for the right situation depends on knowing the fights. It is not a skill that's unique to Unholy and certainly is not made any more interesting/complex through the wound system.


pooling resources for an optimal use in a fight is one thing, knowing when to choose between consuming a wound, adding more with festering, or using RP to generate more runes while taking into consideration your current run cooldown timers and remaining time on SR is still skill, and mastering it is the difference between having a good fluid rotation and sitting there with massive rotation gaps.

11/12/2018 02:26 PMPosted by Tyfus
Something like Unholy Blight that literally has no relation to any aspect of our rotation other than damage, feels very very lazy.


thats because it is lazy, they had no real need to overhaul our talent trees after legion but did it anyway, they pruned stuff the devs didn't like and put baseline spells and boring talents in. we had 3-4 different playstyles available in legion and the fun police just couldn't tolerate us not following their vision of how the spec should be played.

(Danerexles) #163
I would absolutely love if are runes started recharging right away, that would improve the gameplay flow so much, as it stands not now the only time the class flows is when I have the reorigination array active an the azerite trait overwhelming power procs.

(Tyfus) #164
pooling resources for an optimal use in a fight is one thing, knowing when to choose between consuming a wound, adding more with festering, or using RP to generate more runes while taking into consideration your current run cooldown timers and remaining time on SR is still skill, and mastering it is the difference between having a good fluid rotation and sitting there with massive rotation gaps.


It's resource management at a pretty basic level, which is present in literally every spec. Wounds don't make it more nuanced, you just have to remember to not overcap or not apply too many if the mobs won't live too long. The fact that RC procs are up to RNG makes it even less under the player's control, and therefore closes the gap even further. Unholy right now is not remotely complicated, you just have to observe a few simple rules and watch your timers. That's it.

(Inemia) #165
11/12/2018 04:19 PMPosted by Tyfus
It's resource management at a pretty basic level, which is present in literally every spec. Wounds don't make it more nuanced, you just have to remember to not overcap or not apply too many if the mobs won't live too long. The fact that RC procs are up to RNG makes it even less under the player's control, and therefore closes the gap even further. Unholy right now is not remotely complicated, you just have to observe a few simple rules and watch your timers. That's it.


compared to what? nothing in wow is uber complicated if you get unholy, some classes have CD management, some classes have resource management, some classes have combo points, some classes have pets, and some classes have dots, but unholy has all of them. add in the fact that RNG isn't just a simple equalizer, some players play it better than others, similar to how some surfers are better than others even though waves are random.

im not sure if you are serious about there only being a few simple rules, but the amount of nonsense i keep track of and mental flow charts i go through is easily on par with or has surpassed things like old school feral or cata shadow. it shows when i pull around the the same or more DPS as people 10+ ilvls higher with better group situations. when you account for the fact that people have the resource game down, have the fight down, have better gear and still lose out on dps, the only thing left is a skill difference. you can't point at RNG either because good players are consistently always good, that wouldn't be the case if RNG really ruled everything.

(Tyfus) #166
11/12/2018 04:36 PMPosted by Inemia
compared to what?


Compared to better iterations, obviously.
There is a reason that we have a veritable deluge of feedback across forums, reddit, discord, etc. where people are expressing how dissatisfied they are with their specs. Can't count how many times I've seen Unholy DKs reminisce about Necroblight. It wasn't perfect, but definitely much more fun and thematic. You drop your wound stacks nowadays and who cares, but you let your maxed out NP stacks fall off back then and you could kiss your damage goodbye.

11/12/2018 04:36 PMPosted by Inemia
im not sure if you are serious about there only being a few simple rules, but the amount of nonsense i keep track of and mental flow charts i go through is easily on par with or has surpassed things like old school feral or cata shadow.


Maybe you perceive it that way but it's really not that difficult. Get on discord once in a while and you'll see that a lot of people consider it to be pretty brain dead these days. Even Frost that was more recently seen as the easier spec takes more effort now because the risk vs reward of BoS is much higher.

11/12/2018 04:36 PMPosted by Inemia
it shows when i pull around the the same or more DPS as people 10+ ilvls higher with better group situations. when you account for the fact that people have the resource game down, have the fight down, have better gear and still lose out on dps, the only thing left is a skill difference. you can't point at RNG either because good players are consistently always good, that wouldn't be the case if RNG really ruled everything.


I'm afraid this anecdotal example doesn't show anything. The more likely scenario is that you just play with people who are clueless or don't care enough to actually try. It's been well established that most of Unholy's damage comes from passive sources, which shows that skill factors less into the equation because it accounts for a smaller part of the output. Not that there is much skill necessary these days... If you don't get that then ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

(Myronas) #167
Empower Rune Weapon wasnt a 5 minute cd. It was 2.5, letting you use it at least twice in a given fight.

(Rothulian) #168
It was 5 mins.

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Empower_Rune_Weapon

(Inemia) #169
Compared to better iterations, obviously.


i don't disagree that we have had more complex iterations in the past, but that doesn't mean unholy is completely braindead now. in the past with necroblight your spell selection was preset in stone by your runes, there was no decision making on what to hit next. you could reliably script it out your rotation with a one button macro.

Maybe you perceive it that way but it's really not that difficult. Get on discord once in a while and you'll see that a lot of people consider it to be pretty brain dead these days.


"some people say" is just an opinion, i have mine, they have theirs.

11/12/2018 06:17 PMPosted by Tyfus
I'm afraid this anecdotal example doesn't show anything. The more likely scenario is that you just play with people who are clueless or don't care enough to actually try.


i'd be willing to go along with this if i hadn't been topping dps charts for 10 years. i continue to top dps charts even with all our supposed passive damage. you need to be seriously good and have a pretty big ilvl advantage in order for me to not beat you in dps, this was true in wrath, cata, mop, wod, legion, and its still true in bfa. if it was just a matter of nearly every dk i've ran into over 10 years being bad, everyone but me would be bad, but that is not the case.

we still have people in the dk forum proudly posting their purple log parses and they are at the same level i'm at but in a better group, and 10 ilvls higher. these are the same people who think unholy is braindead or that all our damage is passive. so either i keep up/beat them with magically awesome dps and a blood sacrifice to RNGesus, or I play better. im going to go with the latter.

(Danerexles) #170
11/13/2018 04:04 AMPosted by Inemia
Compared to better iterations, obviously.


i don't disagree that we have had more complex iterations in the past, but that doesn't mean unholy is completely braindead now. in the past with necroblight your spell selection was preset in stone by your runes, there was no decision making on what to hit next. you could reliably script it out your rotation with a one button macro.

Maybe you perceive it that way but it's really not that difficult. Get on discord once in a while and you'll see that a lot of people consider it to be pretty brain dead these days.


"some people say" is just an opinion, i have mine, they have theirs.

11/12/2018 06:17 PMPosted by Tyfus
I'm afraid this anecdotal example doesn't show anything. The more likely scenario is that you just play with people who are clueless or don't care enough to actually try.


i'd be willing to go along with this if i hadn't been topping dps charts for 10 years. i continue to top dps charts even with all our supposed passive damage. you need to be seriously good and have a pretty big ilvl advantage in order for me to not beat you in dps, this was true in wrath, cata, mop, wod, legion, and its still true in bfa. if it was just a matter of nearly every dk i've ran into over 10 years being bad, everyone but me would be bad, but that is not the case.

we still have people in the dk forum proudly posting their purple log parses and they are at the same level i'm at but in a better group, and 10 ilvls higher. these are the same people who think unholy is braindead or that all our damage is passive. so either i keep up/beat them with magically awesome dps and a blood sacrifice to RNGesus, or I play better. im going to go with the latter.

Inemia this is a thread for feedback to improve unholy not for you to argue with people an show your epeen please stay off this thread if all you're going to do is argue with people an say how much skill you have. Also you have only cleared normal you dont have the experience with people who are actually good players getting orange parses in normal does not take skill, so please stop

(Inemia) #171
11/13/2018 05:29 AMPosted by Danerexles
Inemia this is a thread for feedback to improve unholy not for you to argue with people an show your epeen please stay off this thread if all you're going to do is argue with people an say how much skill you have. Also you have only cleared normal you dont have the experience with people who are actually good players getting orange parses in normal does not take skill, so please stop


iirc the argument started over what exactly is broken with the spec, not epeen flexing. btw, i raid casually now, but that doesn't mean i don't know what i'm doing. edit, i looked at your logs, at 364 im around your 380 ilvl dps with a much worse raid group, why's that?

but back to what is broken with the spec, a lot of the complaints about what is broken are player skill issues, not class issues. people want necroblight back because the idea of maintaining a dot stack seems complex, but that was all there was to necroblight, not very rewarding or complex.

(Danerexles) #172
11/13/2018 05:29 AMPosted by Danerexles
Inemia this is a thread for feedback to improve unholy not for you to argue with people an show your epeen please stay off this thread if all you're going to do is argue with people an say how much skill you have. Also you have only cleared normal you dont have the experience with people who are actually good players getting orange parses in normal does not take skill, so please stop


iirc the argument started over what exactly is broken with the spec, not epeen flexing. btw, i raid casually now, but that doesn't mean i don't know what i'm doing.

but back to what is broken with the spec, a lot of the complaints about what is broken are player skill issues, not class issues. people want necroblight back because the idea of maintaining a dot stack seems complex, but that was all there was to necroblight, not very rewarding or complex.

Nothing about this spec is complex its extremely easy to learn an play, we do need a rework but we wont get one this xpac so the most we can hope for is numbers tuning unfortunately with so much of are single target also tied into are aoe I dont expect much

(Inemia) #173
11/13/2018 06:05 AMPosted by Danerexles
Nothing about this spec is complex its extremely easy to learn an play


then how come so many people are bad at it? this is the crux of the argument. i say that players are bad and not pulling max damage output, and players say that the spec is weak and needs an overhaul.

we don't need an overhaul or rework, some spell tweaks and changes sure, but mechanically the base rune>wound>rp system is fine.

(Danerexles) #174
11/13/2018 06:14 AMPosted by Inemia
11/13/2018 06:05 AMPosted by Danerexles
Nothing about this spec is complex its extremely easy to learn an play


then how come so many people are bad at it? this is the crux of the argument. i say that players are bad and not pulling max damage output, and players say that the spec is weak and needs an overhaul.

we don't need an overhaul or rework, some spell tweaks and changes sure, but mechanically the base rune>wound>rp system is fine.

Because people are just bad at this game doesnt mean unholy is complex it's a very very easy spec to play.

(Inemia) #175
11/13/2018 06:16 AMPosted by Danerexles
11/13/2018 06:14 AMPosted by Inemia
...

then how come so many people are bad at it? this is the crux of the argument. i say that players are bad and not pulling max damage output, and players say that the spec is weak and needs an overhaul.

we don't need an overhaul or rework, some spell tweaks and changes sure, but mechanically the base rune>wound>rp system is fine.

Because people are just bad at this game doesnt mean unholy is complex it's a very very easy spec to play.


if the average person is bad and you are not, then you need to recognize that fact instead of posturing by stating that something difficult for them is easy. but depending on how you look at it anything is easy.

(Danerexles) #176
11/13/2018 06:26 AMPosted by Inemia
11/13/2018 06:16 AMPosted by Danerexles
...
Because people are just bad at this game doesnt mean unholy is complex it's a very very easy spec to play.


if the average person is bad and you are not, then you need to recognize that fact instead of posturing by stating that something difficult for them is easy. but depending on how you look at it anything is easy.

9 times out of 10 its difficult for them because they dont bother to do any research into there class, into the boss fights, they dont have keybinds, they dont pre pot, they let VP fall off, they over cap wounds, they over cap runic power, they keyboard turn, they use army with out lust, they take the wrong talents etc.... all of this is easily fixed with a simple 10 minute guide on YouTube. This doesnt mean the class is at all complex it just means they wont/cant be bothered to do any research.

If you truly believe unholy is complex to play I'm sorry, but it's a very simple play style.

(Inemia) #177
11/13/2018 06:33 AMPosted by Danerexles
If you truly believe unholy is complex to play I'm sorry, but it's a very simple play style.


its more complex than anything else in wow atm, but there is also something to be said about surface level complexity vs depth.

(Danerexles) #178
11/13/2018 06:41 AMPosted by Inemia
11/13/2018 06:33 AMPosted by Danerexles
If you truly believe unholy is complex to play I'm sorry, but it's a very simple play style.


its more complex than anything else in wow atm, but there is also something to be said about surface level complexity vs depth.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree, I dont believe any spec or fight in the game are very complex right now, i find that most people are just not good at the game an cant be bothered to take the time to research an improve.

(Mythená) #179
11/13/2018 06:45 AMPosted by Danerexles
I guess we will just have to agree to disagree, I dont believe any spec or fight in the game are very complex right now, i find that most people are just not good at the game an cant be bothered to take the time to research an improve.
I agree that a number of people just won't take the effort to improve themselves.

Then again, having 3 baseline cooldowns but none of them even boost our disease/strike/runic dump damage is hardly justifiable as 'great design'.

Well, maybe great for those 'it's fine if i hit like a wet noodle, as long as my pet is awesome and i can customize how they look!'

(Danerexles) #180
11/13/2018 08:06 AMPosted by Mythená
11/13/2018 06:45 AMPosted by Danerexles
I guess we will just have to agree to disagree, I dont believe any spec or fight in the game are very complex right now, i find that most people are just not good at the game an cant be bothered to take the time to research an improve.
I agree that a number of people just won't take the effort to improve themselves.

Then again, having 3 baseline cooldowns but none of them even boost our disease/strike/runic dump damage is hardly justifiable as 'great design'.

Well, maybe great for those 'it's fine if i hit like a wet noodle, as long as my pet is awesome and i can customize how they look!'

Hey I agree unholy needs a big rework, why have so many CDs that hit like wet noodles, what have are single target spells interwoven with are aoe, why does mastery scaling suck again, why does the new azerite triat do fire damage instead of shadow, why do runes not start recharging right away, why are we using a old combo point system that makes target switching a real pain, why is a massive part of are single target damage on a 8 minute cool down etc why do we need reorigination array plus procs from overwhelming power an massive amount of haste to not feel like a slow pos. All these an more asked countless times for months an still not a single blue post

Also the big one why does are pet still auto attack the damn training dummies in freehold