BFA Unholy Death Knight Feedback (Cont.)


(Razeal) #121
11/08/2018 07:20 AMPosted by Gurthäng
Sure cause your "feeling" is very trustworthy compared to pure math.


The feeling comes from running sims all week. In other words, math.

Check out what % of your damage is physical, after raid bosses and M+'s. Also note the -8% damage aura and the fact that Vers is on a different damage multiplier than everything else. I'm saying this for Single target, when I sim 4 mobs for a minute I get a secondary priority that looks like this: Mast/Crit/Haste/Vers, which makes sense because Vers has lower scaling value(you need more of it for a smaller % gain) and you don't get as much up front as you do from Mast/Crit/Haste.

The reason for that is simple, mechanics of VP/Epidemic/DND/CS(SS). Mostly VP/Epi though. Vers doesn't scale the Dot or Epi as well as Crit or Mastery, even with it being on a different multiplier, and you don't see it's value til you start simming longer St fights. Haste isn't as good either because of how many times your dot can do damage with Epi/VP erupts, you'd only care about it if you wanted to max the number of CS/SS you could use during a DND window. Since we all stack haste anyway this doesn't end up being too much of a concern. Go below 10%, suddenly DND cleave damage takes a size able hit though.

Different story in Single Target where a great deal of your damage is actually physical and you have a longer time hitting into the boss. Once I hit 18% haste on my UDK, in a 5 minute ST fight using the standard Skulker/Reaper/UF build Vers becomes my #2 secondary right behind crit. When I talent AOTD hate remains my #2 in ST, my max on gear is 19% and I don't have enough to see where Vers overtakes it with that talent.Like I said as well, the second I got to 8% it gave my Strength DPS value a boost of .15 dps. I'm not saying it fixes Unholy, but it helps a little.
Not enough by a long shot, we need actual numbers tuning for that.

11/08/2018 10:56 AMPosted by Rothulian
The 17-18% haste thing is pure feelcraft fantasy.


You do know that runes/white swing have different break points right? By break point(in context to Unholy) I mean the max number haste you can get in a given tier which will give enough auto attack and rune regen (not to mention the Ghoul/SD procs) to make it valued over the other stats in a given time period. You,myself or anyone else would pick the time frame for which you are looking to increase these values and calculate at what point in the same given time frame other stats overtake haste, because you aren't getting enough extra hits/runes out of the stat. We mostly let Simcraft/Raidbots do this for us now, which is what makes the fight time measure so important.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maY5aNGbn2A

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Attack_speed

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Rune_system

Watch the entire video, everything is explained and look at the links.

(Rothulian) #122
That's a legion unholy video when we used Dark Arbiter (current gargoyle which is pretty much dead). You literally just choose ilvl. I can't explain it any simpler than that.

Look at guides on DK discords and you'll see the same thing. Mastery is bad st, amazing aoe. Other secondaries shift a tiny bit constantly with each gear change....but are all pretty much equal.

Choose ilvl and move on. If you're still unsure, go on raidbots and sim yourself.

(Tyfus) #123
11/08/2018 12:29 PMPosted by Inemia
not really, i play unholy quite well, i picked up wounds quickly in legion and found them to be quite fun. i also don't understand how you don't see synergy within the spec: spend runes to make wounds, spend runes to consume wounds to make RP, spend RP to make runes, repeat, runes->wounds->rp->runes->wounds->rp.


You (and everyone else) picked it up fast because there isn't much to pick up. Like most specs, Unholy has a very low skill cap right now, which also means it's quite boring. You essentially described the basic way DKs have generated resources since the beginning with wounds barely registering as an afterthought to bump SS damage and allowing the use of Apoc. There is little risk and therefore no reward. The payoff is what makes playing a spec interesting.

A lot of us have written lengthy posts regarding improvement in the many many threads we've had since alpha/beta. Despite not liking wounds, I even gave feedback to try to make them into something that remotely resembles interesting game-play. None of that is going to come about with a simple number churn.

11/08/2018 12:29 PMPosted by Inemia
the problem is i know better, and asking for significant rework mid-expansion is like wishing to win the lottery, its just not gonna happen. a numbers tune is not a fools dream though, and it would solve most of our problems, it would certainly do a better job at solving them than a fiery chains azerite trait.


We all know that.
The only reason that pattern worked in the past was because the base specs used to be in decent shape, for the most part. Number tuning is just going to make the people who stare at meters/logs feel better about themselves for a while. They really need to just start delaying content and dedicate major patches to rebuilding the classes.

(Razeal) #124
11/08/2018 03:10 PMPosted by Tyfus
Number tuning is just going to make the people who stare at meters/logs feel better about themselves for a while.


In some cases it won't help at all. There are those of us that can't stand Frost right now even though it's a lot better numbers wise, and refuse to play it. Which is why I'm posting from my DH, havoc is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy more fun than frost.

On topic, buff Unholy.

(Gurthäng) #125
11/08/2018 03:10 PMPosted by Tyfus
Number tuning is just going to make the people who stare at meters/logs feel better about themselves for a while. They really need to just start delaying content and dedicate major patches to rebuilding the classes.

I guess you never raided at all and are not familiar with the feeling of having to roll mongo frost, blood or reroll to rogue to be invited to a decent raid group cause what ppl only look at are logs.
Your opinion has 0 value looking at your profile.

(Inemia) #126
You (and everyone else) picked it up fast because there isn't much to pick up.


then explain the spread in dps between UHDKs, if it was low skill then dps would be determined purely by ilvl and azerite traits, but its not. skilled players pull more dps than unskilled players, and there is no way around that fact. meaning there is more to the spec than the surface level of understanding you are describing.

(Stormdk) #127
I mean,
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/tn2xY2meuYwXaFfkdCvKpr

(Razeal) #128
11/09/2018 07:14 AMPosted by Stormdk
I mean,
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/tn2xY2meuYwXaFfkdCvKpr


What was the item level you simmed at for this?

*NVM, got it in the full HTML link.*

(Tyfus) #129
11/08/2018 03:53 PMPosted by Gurthäng
I guess you never raided at all and are not familiar with the feeling of having to roll mongo frost, blood or reroll to rogue to be invited to a decent raid group cause what ppl only look at are logs.
Your opinion has 0 value looking at your profile.


I've actually done my fair share of raiding in most expansions, but unsubbed pretty early in BfA after it became apparent that we weren't going to see any significant fixes to game systems or specs.

If you're a good player and aren't pushing world firsts (which doesn't seem like you are judging by your profile), it's easy enough to get around the numbers tuning by becoming a part of a decent guild. You can't however get around the feeling of playing a broken spec.

Judging by most of your comments, you fit the profile of one of those toxic people who stares at logs/meters and has a fit in discord.

11/08/2018 04:37 PMPosted by Inemia
then explain the spread in dps between UHDKs, if it was low skill then dps would be determined purely by ilvl and azerite traits, but its not. skilled players pull more dps than unskilled players, and there is no way around that fact. meaning there is more to the spec than the surface level of understanding you are describing.


I definitely agree that skilled players pull more dps. But in the current game, that's not the skill of playing the spec. It's the skill of knowing fight mechanics, setting up a proper UI, knowing how to gear, and being persistent enough to farm that gear.

These are things that most decent/veteran players have already learned and can apply to any spec. The skill of playing the spec itself is the smallest contributing factor right now. There isn't much left to learn or master because RNG/passive elements are too powerful and our spec abilities/talents are pruned or just plain bad.

(Gurthäng) #130
If you're a good player and aren't pushing world firsts (which doesn't seem like you are judging by your profile), it's easy enough to get around the numbers tuning by becoming a part of a decent guild. You can't however get around the feeling of playing a broken spec.

Every baddie excuse, "if youre not running world first doesnt matter what and how you play". Also you realize dks bring nothing except damage and grip to a raid group and grips good only for a couple of fights and theyre totally passable without it. Try joining a top 20 guild on your server.

Judging by most of your comments, you fit the profile of one of those toxic people who stares at logs/meters and has a fit in discord.

Judging by most of yours you have no clue how the spec works and still give your clueless opinions.

(Rothulian) #131
Just an FYI for anyone testing on ptr. Magus of the Dead is meleeing at times. If you happen to be on ptr be sure to report that bug.

(Rothulian) #132
Theyre slowly working down their spec list. Lets hope were on it.

(Alazar) #133
11/10/2018 12:10 AMPosted by Rothulian
Theyre slowly working down their spec list. Lets hope were on it.


Hopefully. Single target adjustment and maybe amz or an raid buff back. I would be thrilled.

(Rothulian) #134
11/10/2018 04:50 AMPosted by Alazar
11/10/2018 12:10 AMPosted by Rothulian
Theyre slowly working down their spec list. Lets hope were on it.


Hopefully. Single target adjustment and maybe amz or an raid buff back. I would be thrilled.


We really should have a Battle Shout equivalent. Horn of Winter used to be exactly that....

(Razeal) #135
11/10/2018 12:39 PMPosted by Rothulian
We really should have a Battle Shout equivalent. Horn of Winter used to be exactly that....


Man we had Horn, Magic debuff, movement speed increase, AMZ(if unholy)....all base line. Plus damage that actually mattered. Good old days.

(Rothulian) #136
Its also ridiculous that theres 1 spec per major buff (stam/int/ap). Really need to pass those around.

(Braymo) #137
agreed

(Raziael) #138
11/11/2018 12:51 AMPosted by Rothulian
Its also ridiculous that theres 1 spec per major buff (stam/int/ap). Really need to pass those around.


Yeah. What bothers me is that quite a few things that were "OP" for DK in Wrath were handed out en mass to other specs in Cata while DK has been gutted from the last quarter of Wrath until today.

Imagine if UDK had the kit it had in the beginning of Wrath for M+

-DND fear (immobilize-given to blood-AOE fear given to warlocks-Pally AOE incap with Holy Light or w/e its called-Boomkin AOE silence-imagine the screaming if DK had that)

-DoT's that lower healing potentials/purge hots

-Desecration (AOE snare with one of the best animation graphics I have seen for DK)

-AMZ

-Horn

-Movement Speed from Unholy Aura.

-% magic debuff from DoTs.

Long winded way of stating my agreement with the quote. If I missed anything please add it.

(Rothulian) #139
Pretty irritating that they gave DHs magic brand to...

(Tyfus) #140
11/11/2018 04:40 AMPosted by Raziael
Long winded way of stating my agreement with the quote. If I missed anything please add it.


Not all wrath stuff specifically, but here goes:
-Good ol' Dark Sim, so fun and could potentially be amazing in certain m+ situations.
-Gorefiend's Grasp, of course.
-Defile that reduced damage of enemies.
-Lichborne talent that is not craptastic.
-Icy Touch
dispels.
-Presences.
-The version of Raise Ally that's not annoying to use.