BFA Unholy Death Knight Feedback (Cont.)


(Rothulian) #101
We actually got a very big change in the PTR build today. Helchains now lasts 15 seconds. That is a very good change.

(Rothulian) #102
The Magus of the Dead buff is quite good too. Just need it to stop going into melee and auto attacking....

(Unholynite) #103
11/06/2018 10:13 PMPosted by Rothulian
We actually got a very big change in the PTR build today. Helchains now lasts 15 seconds. That is a very good change.
it would make the still op, but wish it worked with pet at all times for lesser damage and worked with Apocalypse minions as well.

(Alazar) #104
Again it’s a trait. Not an actual fix to single target dmg. It is also very reliant on proper pet pathing.

(Unholynite) #105
Also don't know if this has been mentioned in the thread, to many pages to sift through between the two, but would like to see pestilence replaced by something similiar to rogue quick draw that increased sudden doom proc chance and increased it's damage on a proc by x%

(Razeal) #106
11/07/2018 04:53 AMPosted by Alazar
Again it’s a trait. Not an actual fix to single target dmg. It is also very reliant on proper pet pathing.


Yeah I'm with you, I couldn't give two !@#$s about the azurite traits when other specs are just better baseline and have better traits to boot.

Typical hack response from Blizzard though. This game director is hell bent on following the azurite gear rabbit hole right to the end, hopefully that is the end of him as GD as well.

(Rothulian) #107
Keep in mind we're going to have 2 primary azerite traits on upcoming gear. Going to be a lot more Festermight, magus of the dead, helchains, etc.

No its not an actual fix. But theyre clearly taking their sweet time in that department... so it's at least something.

(Gurthäng) #108
11/07/2018 09:38 AMPosted by Rothulian
Keep in mind we're going to have 2 primary azerite traits on upcoming gear. Going to be a lot more Festermight, magus of the dead, helchains, etc.

No its not an actual fix. But theyre clearly taking their sweet time in that department... so it's at least something.

Ppl will still be taking whatever sims higher and classes will still be balanced around having those traits. Thats just poor design just like legion legendaries.

(Razeal) #109
11/07/2018 01:36 PMPosted by Gurthäng
Ppl will still be taking whatever sims higher and classes will still be balanced around having those traits. Thats just poor design just like legion legendaries.


You and I agree on next to nothing but I don't see this working any other way than what you've described.

Word to the wise though, don't put all your faith in the sims. I've got a feeling Vers is heavily undervalued in the sims after you hit the 17-18% haste breakpoint for runes.

(Myronas) #110
Unholy used to have Empower Rune Weapon, which gave the player base agency on how and when they spent their runes, and just like now where we don't particularly have many burst ability options this helped our single target out tremendously. We don't have anything similar to that.

Though the "choice" may not have existed in some people's minds when they existed, Blood Tap, Runic Empowerment, and Runic Corruption or the "choice" between them would do a lot in terms of general gameplay and agency for each particular situation/playstyle.

Love them or hate them, Wounds are dictating every single aspect of this rotation, down to the opener. It affects our burst, our sustain, our ranged abilities, our aoe, our cooldowns, when we use each ability, etc. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't this the exact reason Blizzard gave for removing diseases from the spec in the first place? Even if it isn't Diseases, we need another playstyle, because this isn't working.

(Myronas) #111
Also, buffing a few innocuous traits that either increase the Fire damage on our tethered ghoul, the one with the 1st gen Pokemon level AI, or give us another uncontrollable minion with the Atari Pong AI, does absolutely nothing to fix the mechanical issues present at every level of this spec, up to and including PvP and PvE, AoE and Single Target, and just general pressing buttons or rotations. To the point where our auto attack damage is comparable to our Wounds spender. Or our Runic Power spender. Or our minions, with the combined intelligence of a 1950's toaster on the verge of shorting due to faulty wiring.

But no, it's cool, you know better, give us traits that ((("fix"))) them.

(Rothulian) #112
11/07/2018 01:36 PMPosted by Gurthäng
11/07/2018 09:38 AMPosted by Rothulian
Keep in mind we're going to have 2 primary azerite traits on upcoming gear. Going to be a lot more Festermight, magus of the dead, helchains, etc.

No its not an actual fix. But theyre clearly taking their sweet time in that department... so it's at least something.

Ppl will still be taking whatever sims higher and classes will still be balanced around having those traits. Thats just poor design just like legion legendaries.


It is and they've always done it. They've always balanced around legendaries, tier sets, etc. This is no different.

(Rothulian) #113
11/07/2018 01:42 PMPosted by Razeal
11/07/2018 01:36 PMPosted by Gurthäng
Ppl will still be taking whatever sims higher and classes will still be balanced around having those traits. Thats just poor design just like legion legendaries.


You and I agree on next to nothing but I don't see this working any other way than what you've described.

Word to the wise though, don't put all your faith in the sims. I've got a feeling Vers is heavily undervalued in the sims after you hit the 17-18% haste breakpoint for runes.


To be fair. The best secondary stat for Unholy is item level. Literally just pick the highest ilvl item and use it.

(Rhazghal) #114
when is blizzard going to Really fix unholy and give us a glyph for those new hd skeleton warrior models to replace the ghoul?
the glyph system is so underused

(Razeal) #115
11/08/2018 12:32 AMPosted by Rothulian
The best secondary stat for Unholy is item level. Literally just pick the highest ilvl item and use it.


No it isn't unless we're talking about a gain to Weapon DPS. Nothing short of that is worth dropping below 17% haste, and Strength decays to the point where crit outweighs it in some cases. This all relates to Single target, just so we're clear.

Which was why I mentioned Vers. My DK had str decaying at a high rate, but I have a set of items that allow for 8%. I sim one setup at 4% vers, Str is valued at 1.6. I go up to 8%, it becomes 1.75, same str. value in both sims as I am doing the stat swap with rings. It also raises the values for crit/mastery by .05/.15 single target. Haste stays the same, I'm guessing that I'd need to be a lot closer to 23-26% to see that get a higher value.

I've got a 370 chest with Battlefield Focus and a 360 with Festermight, which I also have on my helm. I pop literally one wound and that 360 chest becomes better than my 370. If it were only the chest that had Festermight that would be enough, the difference in str is less than the value of one trait/one wound popped.

Oh, as one last point about the item level not always being an upgrade, Dark Moon Card: Fathoms.

This is what happens when specs are hit with poor AP mods and a negative damage aura. Which is why Vers is better than it looks. The damage reduction is also very very nice, every little bit helps with Unholy atm. I'm not saying vers 'fixes' Unholy, it doesn't but it delays Strength decay at the minimum.

(Inemia) #116
11/07/2018 01:46 PMPosted by Myronas
Even if it isn't Diseases, we need another playstyle, because this isn't working.


11/07/2018 02:35 PMPosted by Myronas
But no, it's cool, you know better, give us traits that ((("fix"))) them.


mechanically unholy works fine in PVE, we really only need a numbers adjustment. also iirc we figured out at the end of the last thread that you don't know how to play unholy properly, hence your problems with it. instead of posting nonsensical rants again like "rework or riot" why not level to 120 and actually learn how to play unholy properly.

(Gurthäng) #117
11/07/2018 01:42 PMPosted by Razeal
I've got a feeling Vers is heavily undervalued in the sims after you hit the 17-18% haste breakpoint for runes.

Sure cause your "feeling" is very trustworthy compared to pure math.

(Rothulian) #118
Special effect items have always been different. That includes trinkets, tier pieces, some weapons, and azerite. That doesn't need explaining.

But for all other items you just go for pure ilvl. We have no haste breakpoints at all unless we use gargoyle. The 17-18% haste thing is pure feelcraft fantasy.

(Tyfus) #119
11/08/2018 06:33 AMPosted by Inemia
mechanically unholy works fine in PVE, we really only need a numbers adjustment. also iirc we figured out at the end of the last thread that you don't know how to play unholy properly, hence your problems with it. instead of posting nonsensical rants again like "rework or riot" why not level to 120 and actually learn how to play unholy properly.


Pot, kettle, black.

If we just had to press outbreak and it did the proper amount of damage, then you could still say that unholy is mechanically fine even though it'd play like garbage. Right now the spec is essentially that. Just a mix of abilities that only fit with each other in name, with no real synergy or nuance. As many people have commented, wounds are an utter failure in their current form. Unholy does need a rework, though from the looks of PTR it'll be lucky to just get a number tuning.

(Inemia) #120
11/08/2018 11:27 AMPosted by Tyfus
11/08/2018 06:33 AMPosted by Inemia
mechanically unholy works fine in PVE, we really only need a numbers adjustment. also iirc we figured out at the end of the last thread that you don't know how to play unholy properly, hence your problems with it. instead of posting nonsensical rants again like "rework or riot" why not level to 120 and actually learn how to play unholy properly.


Pot, kettle, black.

If we just had to press outbreak and it did the proper amount of damage, then you could still say that unholy is mechanically fine even though it'd play like garbage. Right now the spec is essentially that. Just a mix of abilities that only fit with each other in name, with no real synergy or nuance. As many people have commented, wounds are an utter failure in their current form. Unholy does need a rework, though from the looks of PTR it'll be lucky to just get a number tuning.


not really, i play unholy quite well, i picked up wounds quickly in legion and found them to be quite fun. i also don't understand how you don't see synergy within the spec: spend runes to make wounds, spend runes to consume wounds to make RP, spend RP to make runes, repeat, runes->wounds->rp->runes->wounds->rp.

its not just a matter of upping VPs damage, though it should be higher, the fact that frost's dot does more damage is silly, unholy is the dot spec, not frost. but things like gargoyle, its needs about a 35% increase in damage to be a compelling choice over unholy frenzy. wounds need to do more damage in general to increase the attractiveness of bursting sores and pestilence. getting our numbers right means we aren't locked out of talents that we want to take but are mathematically worse.

if i could rework unholy, i would make CS baseline and ditch SS, put necrosis in its spot in row 1, and make SR baseline and an execute. put MoP's bloodtap in it's place in row 4. SR would do 400% more damage and trigger the 10% haste and have its CD reduced to 8 seconds when used on a target below 45% health. i'd also make gargoyle baseline again and put dark arbiter back in its place.

this would give us a burst at the start of the fight with army and another towards the end so we no longer peter out.

the problem is i know better, and asking for significant rework mid-expansion is like wishing to win the lottery, its just not gonna happen. a numbers tune is not a fools dream though, and it would solve most of our problems, it would certainly do a better job at solving them than a fiery chains azerite trait.