BFA Unholy Death Knight Feedback (Cont.)


(Urioh) #41
frost fever dot does do an absurd amount of damage without needing a talent like EF ....

its extremely weird now that you mention it.

(Malchior) #42
10/29/2018 02:42 AMPosted by Urioh
frost fever dot does do an absurd amount of damage without needing a talent like EF ....

its extremely weird now that you mention it.


It also "explodes" randomly like VP. The ideas tank is pretty empty at Blizzard HQ.

(Razeal) #43
Ever see Deep Wounds? Even more. To be clear I'm not suggesting Arms/Assassination/Frost need nerfs. Not when Unholy is the outlier in how poorly the damage is tuned.

https://www.wowhead.com/spell=191587/virulent-plague

https://www.wowhead.com/spell=55095/frost-fever

https://www.wowhead.com/spell=262304/deep-wounds

https://www.wowhead.com/spell=262111/mastery-deep-wounds

You can see why VP is at the bottom of the list easily, it isn't affected by as many mods as Frost Fever and has far lower AP co efficient's. It isn't affected by haste either.

Deep wounds is affected by haste; and the mastery mod which looks like it increases the damage by 80% baseline.

Have a look at these next two,

https://www.wowhead.com/spell=1943/rupture

https://www.wowhead.com/spell=703/garrote

https://www.wowhead.com/spell=76803/mastery-potent-assassin

both are modified by haste, and have other multipliers built into the talent tree.

The development team almost seems like they're developing specs for two different games when you look at Unholy against other melee. Frost too in some cases but FDK is unquestionably stronger.

When I sim my UDK, wep damage comes in at 8.7 for Unholy. Frost DK is slightly better, Main hand is 6.8, OH was 3.4. My DH's Main hand scales at 9, OH at 4.

Since the majority of Unholy damage in single target is white swing damage we're starting off behind other melee specs based on wep damage value alone,now add horrid Primary/Secondary scaling and -8% aura and no wonder UH Is where it is.

Finally Assassination/Arms scaling makes them better than Frost.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/19#difficulty=4&aggregate=amount

https://raider.io/mythic-plus/season-bfa-1/all/world/leaderboards

With neither dps spec being highly desired in M+, for obvious reasons. Other specs do more damage, have better scaling, utility and mobility.

(Paint) #44
Developers give us our aura nerf back at least for 8.1. The smallest big help you could give us for the patch

(Vitálus) #45
Anyone miss necro blight in WoD?

Good times.

(Urioh) #46
yeah i miss necrotic plague so much it hurts man

Id say a vast majority of us do.

(Alazar) #47
Bump for a blue

(Rothulian) #48
They can literally bandaid fix us with single target buffs only and we would be "ok". Obviously the fun factor is still an issue for many. But to be a functioning spec with proper tuning... Literally only need single target buffs. That's it.

(Urioh) #49
true they could but havnt for some unknown reason

Feels like we are being treated how Demo was treated back in wod

"We don't want you to be playing Demonology. We're not bad at math, we just don't like that spec."

is the phrase that comes to mind

(Razeal) #50
10/29/2018 08:56 AMPosted by Urioh
Feels like we are being treated how Demo was treated back in wod


That started in MOP, Throne of Thunder.Continued through WoD and came to a head in Legion/BFA.

Former Demo lock player, I was die hard till mid WOD when I dropped the spec out of disgust because of balance, and the lengths the team went to in ensuring people didn't play the spec.

This is exactly that situation all over again. The only difference is the team won't man up and own that they want Unholy in the gutter like they did with Demo.

10/29/2018 06:28 AMPosted by Urioh
yeah i miss necrotic plague so much it hurts man


I'm not trying to be rude, however I'm in the 'minority' that didn't like Nplague.

It wasn't engaging and it was weaker than Breath; for the sake of clarification what do people miss about this trash ability? It was a dps loss until the last stack was achieved and a marginal gain after, had numerous bugs with multi strike and blood boil. MS procs didn't add a stack, blood boil would select the weakest value plague and spread that at first, or just reset stacks outright I can't remember which. It took months before they finally bandaged the issue with making it spread off the closest target when you used blood boil.

Nplauge could have been great, in a different expansion with different developers. What I remember is a worse version of VP in every possible way. Just my opinion, maybe I'm in the minority with that opinion. I'd hate to see the spell come back as it was , keep in mind that nothing that was supposed to be 'good' for Unholy actually has been good since well....Wrath.

(Stormdk) #51
What if they just gut frost vs unholy and replaces it with 2h vs dw?
Hear me out,
Frost players ever since MoP? Cata? A few expansions now, have wanted 2H frost to come back, and the outbreak of not even being able to play it in Legion and now in bfa made a lot of the cry babies appear. This might help them.
Unholy being as the 2H spec never really, felt perfect. Some things like Sudden doom makes us wonder why we have no way to buff our auta attack speed without haste.
Im suggesting that we can combine the slow paced frost/unholy playstyles (BoS/diseases/wounds) with 2H, and make the faster playstyles (Obliteration, pets) into the DW playstyle.
Imagine a world with gargoyle and harbinger of doom working together with the attack speed of DW.
Imagine BoS hitting like an even bigger truck with a 2H
Imagine forums stop being brought up from the dead about frost wanting 2H back

"But Storm, you just miss the DA playstyle from antorus, hate wounds, and want 2H frosters to shut up"
I mean, you're not wrong (¬‿¬)

(Razeal) #52
10/29/2018 12:55 PMPosted by Stormdk
Some things like Sudden doom makes us wonder why we have no way to buff our auta attack speed without haste.


Unholy Frenzy last expac and this one both affect melee haste. Last expac it was only melee haste, now it's all haste. Ghetto Lust.

SD also works with haste breakpoints, by the end of the expac we'll probably be looking at a free coil for most of any given encounter until we're out of meaningful (meaning resource spending) globals to use. Not that Death Coil is good for anything except Runic Corruption procs, which could very well lead to an over capping situation. Again. Which, again would have nothing to do with resources regenerating too quick (good luck with that excuse in this expac blizzard) and everything to do with the fact that the damage is trash and any other gloabal has more value. To be totally fair I'm playing low mastery, but I've tried it with 40% in game and simmed up to 60%, it's a black hole for dps atm. Better to stack crit and just buff the potential on everything, rather than just wounds/coil/VP/and one third of Scourge Strike.

I don't think I'd like playing what you're suggesting in all honesty. I'd have to play it, it sounds interesting even if I don't think I'd like it. I think the development team has gone so far astray from what both Unholy and Frost are supposed to feel like in terms of rotation execution that people will suggest nearly anything to have that problem resolved. Both specs have lost so much over the years that they became a patchwork quilt of band aids and discriminatory mechanics by the end of WOD. Legion was well on the way to correcting that, then Beta nerfs hit and finished Unholy. Frost came out of that ok.

Main point both specs felt more like a "Death Knight" to me than anything since Wrath. Forget numbers, I was blown away by the effort put into the actual design of everything, mostly the artifact even though it was mostly a home for resource fixit's for Unholy.I'm also well aware that wasn't the original design of the artifact, and that much of it was changed/nerfed in the last month of Beta along with our tool tip damage values. When those artifacts were taken away both Unholy and Frost suffered huge identity hits. It's been touched on by several people in this thread, and now yourself. None of you are wrong. The specs both need reworks.

(Sphyr) #53
could of sworn or herd even that virulent plague only works with unholy frenzy's haste or was it soul reaper, as far as the haste goes n mastery scales too for the disease. As well as for the other abilities even the pet last I herd but mastery seems to be really weak or need a lot of mastery for it.

Far as necrotic plague didn't really care for it as well, Specially when it was a main disease. I like it now as it is as another disease (hence wandering plague) not as our main disease like it was in WoD I think it was.

u guys think the new pvp talents be worth it in patch 8.1? to make a difference.

Frost & Unholy
Transfusion (New) Instantly generates 20 Runic Power, and reduces the Runic Power cost of your Death Strike by 50% for 7 sec. PvP Talent. PvP Talent. Instant. 45 sec cooldown. Requires DeathKnight. Requires level 57+.

Unholy
Life and Death (New)- When targets afflicted by your Festering Strike are healed, you are also healed for 15% of the amount. In addition, your Virulent Plague now erupts for 400% of normal eruption damage when dispelled. PvP Talent. PvP Talent. Requires DeathKnight. Requires level 57+.

Necromancer's Bargain (New)- The cooldown of your Apocalypse is reduced by 45 sec, but your Apocalypse no longer summons ghouls but instead applies Crypt Fever to the target. Crypt Fever Deals 8% of the targets maximum health in Shadow damage over 4 sec. Healing spells cast on this target will refresh the duration of Crypt Fever. PvP Talent. PvP Talent. Requires DeathKnight. Requires level 57+.

Necrotic Strike A vicious strike that deals [ 16.44% [ 30% of Attack Power ] Plague damage, and converts 1 Festering Wounds into a Necrotic Wound, absorbing the next [ 150% of Attack Power ] healing received by the target up to 8% of the target's maximum health in healing recieved. Requires Melee Weapon. PvP Talent. PvP Talent. 1 Runes. Melee range. Instant. Requires DeathKnight. Requires level 57+.

Raise Abomination (New)- Raises an Abomination for 25 sec which wanders within 10 yards of where it was summoned, applying Festering Wound when it melees targets, and and affecting those nearby with Virulent Plague. PvP Talent. PvP Talent. 40 yd range. Instant. 1.5 min cooldown. Requires DeathKnight. Requires level 57+.

Sry was copy and paste from Mmo-Champion, lol yes I know they might not make it to live and can change. Just seems like some BS talents right there. But again its pvp only not pve. Altho there are some talents for pve that looks interesting such as.

Helchains- Dark Transformations links ignites you and your pet with chains that deal 78 flaming chains that deal 57 Fire damage every sec to enemies between you for 5 sec.

Magus of the Dead- Apocalypse and Army of the Damned additionally summon a Magus of the Dead who hurls Frostbolts and Shadowbolts at your foes, dealing 156 each. damage each.

To me that don't seem like its gonna help us for pvp maybe a little bit on survival,
and by them making necrotic strike work with death and decay to hit all targets as well seems silly. Which seems like making us use DnD for pvp as well which I assume be more of a pain getting festering wounds up not just for one target but for many n popping them for a heal absorb if that would even work. from my understanding of why they making necrotic strike work with DnD right.

guess will see as adjustments be made n c wat they give us.
Be nice if they actually listen to us lol.

They honestly should of left us alone at the pre-patch before expansion lol

(Paint) #54
Make crypt fever 15% over 6 sec and it’ll be baller. Make virulent plague also erupt for 200% baseline with life and death. Buff armor by 15% in PvP buff scourge and dc by 50% fester by 30% 7% baseline haste and you have a class that could be fairly populated on the arena ladder for once since WoD frost dk

(Rothulian) #55
10/29/2018 08:56 AMPosted by Urioh
true they could but havnt for some unknown reason

Feels like we are being treated how Demo was treated back in wod

"We don't want you to be playing Demonology. We're not bad at math, we just don't like that spec."

is the phrase that comes to mind


It's absolutely beginning to feel this way. We literally need a few ST buffs to be functional. That's it.

(Nombies) #56
Solid points on all counts. The gargoyle and death coil issues in particular feel worth delving into though. Having to talent into gargoyle feels completely wrong after just always having it since wrath. I think by now it feels almost as tied to unholy as army of the dead. I'd also like to say that I don't think Death Coil has ever really been in a good enough place to carry over between xpacs. It feels like we see a different version of death coil every 10 levels, without fail. Sometimes more than that. I'd be happy to see the ability manage to stay consistent between two expansions at least once, some day.

I do agree with the idea that unholy seems to be getting nudged in the direction of WoD-Demonology though.

(Omniwang) #57
10/29/2018 12:55 PMPosted by Stormdk
What if they just gut frost vs unholy and replaces it with 2h vs dw?
Hear me out,
Frost players ever since MoP? Cata? A few expansions now, have wanted 2H frost to come back, and the outbreak of not even being able to play it in Legion and now in bfa made a lot of the cry babies appear. This might help them.
Unholy being as the 2H spec never really, felt perfect. Some things like Sudden doom makes us wonder why we have no way to buff our auta attack speed without haste.
Im suggesting that we can combine the slow paced frost/unholy playstyles (BoS/diseases/wounds) with 2H, and make the faster playstyles (Obliteration, pets) into the DW playstyle.
Imagine a world with gargoyle and harbinger of doom working together with the attack speed of DW.
Imagine BoS hitting like an even bigger truck with a 2H
Imagine forums stop being brought up from the dead about frost wanting 2H back

"But Storm, you just miss the DA playstyle from antorus, hate wounds, and want 2H frosters to shut up"
I mean, you're not wrong (¬‿¬)


Stop with the two handed frost crap. It's literally the least important thing to get looked at this game.

The shade of brown used in collect the poop quests is more important than 2 handed frost.

(Jorlkal) #58
The new pvp talents will help a bit, but I think we will still be low on the totem pole. Problem with just adding a bunch of pvp talents, is we are still locked into picking only 3, and I have a feeling it's gonna be all the defensive ones, all the time.

The new traits while sounding really cool, are gonna be far from top tier.

(Sphyr) #59
my thoughts exactly for the pvp talents i dont c it helping much either, either way looking at it its our main damage the dot the disease that needs buffing. As u n others be saying that can buff other spells but would it really do much?

ok maybe it might for single target such as ss/cs n death coil but thats it unholy aint really a single target spec. I mean were basically like affliction lock lol that has a few single target spells but mainly rely on dots. We as unholy have no big burst or hits like fire mages, assass rogues, or warriors or other classes that hit hard n 20k+ damage. Yes i get thats were surviving will come into play but it changes nothing if cant do damage to make up for it specially if cd's r blown then what n cant run cause we so stupidly slow lol.

I mean didnt they try doing all that with other spells like buffing ss or cs and death coil n still not help much specially over the course of other expansions since pandaria. I mean its all where about is disease n pets lol none of this other garbage n they ruined that with this stupid supposed class fantasy crap.

all n all my humble opinion disease is the answer. Sure buff some spells give new talents still wont compensate for what we do. Thats wat i think.

(Tyfus) #60
10/29/2018 06:28 AMPosted by Urioh
yeah i miss necrotic plague so much it hurts man

Id say a vast majority of us do.


Unholy with Necrotic Plague was the most fun and thematically accurate spec that I've experienced in this game. The whole spec was in better shape at that time though, given that we also had proper utility/mobility.

Sure it had it's problems but it definitely had better bones than the terrible wound system they forced us into with Legion and more importantly, it was actually fun. If they'd kept that as an option for Unholy, I'd probably still be paying Blizz money even BfA's plethora of other problems.

10/29/2018 12:55 PMPosted by Stormdk
Unholy being as the 2H spec never really, felt perfect. Some things like Sudden doom makes us wonder why we have no way to buff our auta attack speed without haste.
Im suggesting that we can combine the slow paced frost/unholy playstyles (BoS/diseases/wounds) with 2H, and make the faster playstyles (Obliteration, pets) into the DW playstyle.


They just need to make our strikes a bit meatier again. They don't have to be absolute nukes, just register higher than the current tickle. There are other ways of varying a spec's tempo, without forcing weapon choices.

A lot of people got into this class to wield a big 2H rune weapon so IMO all DK specs should be 2H baseline, with the option to go dual wield to appease those other people.

10/29/2018 02:03 PMPosted by Rothulian
t's absolutely beginning to feel this way. We literally need a few ST buffs to be functional. That's it


Speaking mostly for myself here, but at this point they need to do a bit better than functional to get back people's subs. This spec/class is a mess!

- Our AoE prowess hinges on a talent that nullifies its whole row and should be baseline.
- Our ST is terrible.
- Our ability to survive has been whittled away.
- Mobility is on par with our juggernaut status.
- The spec's synergy has been continuously simplified with the pruning so that any monkey can smash buttons and skate by.
- Grip, our claim to fame, is running on fumes as our only real utility.
- The spec's main mechanic is boring and doesn't even work properly in AoE situations.
- Talents are in a sad state, offering no choice or only bad choices in most rows.
- I don't PVP but plenty of people have negatively commented on that aspect of the spec as well.

I honestly can't fathom how people are still paying money or farming gold for this...