BFA Unholy Death Knight Feedback (Cont.)

(Krissignacia) #488

Shadow of death? I still don’t think it was that op. It was very dk to me

(Inemia) #489

wrath had 2 diseases to manage, not 3 (unholy blight didn’t count), and the rotations were so simple you could do a single castsequence 1 button macro or play with no UI at all. people want wrath playstyle back because we were super OP in wrath while being faceroll easy, not because it had deeper gameplay.

the funny thing is you could play like wrath now if you want, VP is your ranged dot and UB is your melee dot, the button presses replace IT and PS. which is exactly how my bg build works: VP, UB, HD, then stack them up with necrotic wound and watch their HP melt.

(Krissignacia) #490

unholy in wrath had 3 bP FF and crypt fever when talented into ebon also 4 with wondering

(Inemia) #491

but BP and FF where the only ones you actually managed, crypt fever was just automatic.


disease management was just a title i used to differentiate the play styles from eachother. however since were on the subject, while ebon plague was a self-applying disease, the spec wasnt as black and white as youre making it out to be. there was intricacy involved with keeping diseases up and on as many targets as possible - mainly due to the rune system being uh/uh/fr/fr/bl/bl. you had a finite window per rune to do as needed at any given time which is more than what can be said about the current system, and thats not even bringing up death runes. as of right now, we only have 1 disease which costs 1 rune that AUTOMATICALLY spreads itself (1 rune cost total). back then we had to apply 2 diseases and manually spread it with pestilence (3 DIFFERENT rune cost total). i honestly dont know how anyone can compare the 2 and think that the current system is more complex than the one from before.

(Inemia) #493

don’t confuse complexity with tediousness. the old system was tedious to use, but not more complex. there is no mechanical difference between 1 dot that ticks for 100 and two dots that tick for 50 each and have the same duration. it just means that you are hitting two spells of the same level of interaction instead of one.

the old rune system had colors, but all those did was lock you in to certain abilities and they held your hand on what to press next. iirc the original scourge strike was a FR and UH rune, bloods were spend on pest or blood strike. so with a FR and UH spent applying dots, it was pretty obvious what you would hit next (SS) and then when you had your FR and UH runes come back, but your dots still had 10 seconds on them, you would be hitting SS again. this wasn’t rocket science, and it made us extremely predicable in pvp.

one piece of complexity from the old system that is missing was bouncing diseases between two targets so that you could use blood runes to reapply dots to your main target instead of a FR and UH, but that isn’t really necessary with the current model.

the current system is more complex in the way you juggle and manage your spells as a whole, not just the dots. you need to interweave rune and runic power spenders in between applying and spending wounds, and if you are so inclined, managing your ghoul’s energy and hitting claw. the old wrath system had static rotations that you could memorize with zero change in them ever. by the end of wrath i could hit alt-z and literally play with no UI and still top the dps chart because i had everything memorized.

IT>PS>SS>BS>BS>RPDump>SS>SS>BS>BS>RPDump>repeat till boss dies. not very appealing anymore.


well to start off: “complexity” (in this discussion) can literally be measured while “tediousness” is strictly subjective. so for the sake of having a healthy and meaningful discussion, i ask that you refrain from bias statements. your statement about 1 dot ticking 100 and 2 dots ticking for 50 being similar is also not valid because it just isnt the same when youre comparing 2 completely different rune systems. while it was briefly debated at one point on how the flow of combat for dks was a bit spammy because of the old rune system, there is literally no thought process that goes into rune usage with the current system. at least before, there was.

i would also like to point out that in no patch was scourge strike ever 1 unholy and 1 frost. also, blood strike was hardly ever used as blood runes were extremely important because of their lack of flexibility with death runes. not to mention pestilence was just more valuable anyway. your arguments that say otherwise lead me to believe that you are not at all familiar with how the older combat system really was.

i love that you brought up the ghoul and its energy as a point to defend your argument because pressing dark transformation is literally the ONLY thing you need to do to manage your ghoul in the current system (there is 1 nuance with shambling rush, but that idea existed back then with leap). back then at one point, you actually had to manage ghouls energy because it didnt have the energy-pooling ui that it does today (heaven forbid you needed to gnaw at a moments notice with auto claw turned on. like you literally needed to play without auto-claw off).i mean, even the old dark transformation had more complexity to it because it needed to be stacked to 5…

lastly, i would like to reiterate that complexity is something that can be measured and building wounds with 1 button while spending them with another button (and using your built-up rp) is far from complex when compared to the old system. the “rotational string” that you mentioned is only true when its a training dummy. however when fighting a boss with actual mechanics, the abilities you used were a constant dynamic decision. every spec in the game has a rotation that can be repeated “til boss dies”, but thats just not how it is in practice. if anything, the static rotation for the current system has less steps and less abilities in it. even if i were to acknowledge your last line with agreement (which i dont), its still more appealing - and flashier might i mention - than the current systems rotation.

(Inemia) #496

no, i have my opinion, you have yours.

you have that backwards, atm you need to interweave and make next spell usage decisions constantly, the old system was a static rotation.

maybe im thinking of howling blast from 32/39.

don’t be a tool, that was ten years ago.

you might want to stroll by the acherus discord, there was a discussion a little while back about using a macro to switch off auto-claw to pool energy before DT in order to get the max about of boosted strikes with DT up.

not really. if you really think the old system was complex and the new one isn’t, then you are missing something. “easy to learn hard to master” remember? you stopped at easy to learn and think you mastered the whole thing.

i gave you a valid response that was neutral in tone and you responded by being a condescending tw@t, why should i consider anything you have to say?

(Fookí) #497

i, like most here i’m sure, couldn’t give a damn about how complex a disease rotation could, would, or should be- i just wanna do damage to the point i’m NOT overlooked for some FotM spec in pve or focused in pvp because we’re basically a free kill.

(Inemia) #498

they got the free kill in PVP fixed in 8.1, our only real issue is lack of ST throughput in PVE. the general theory is that the devs don’t want to make us even more OP at AoE and since most of our abilities can be used in AoE that makes boosting them difficult.

right now we expend a ton of effort to be bottom dps on bosses, and that is what feels bad. too much of our damage is baked into army and not enough in our main abilities.


when i made my first reply to you, i didnt bring up opinions - aside from my last sentence. your opening statement to me came across as biased because you used subjective opinions. i genuinely and politely asked that if you were going to carry on discussion with me, to refrain from being biased is all. the fact that you also were using incorrect information (ss rune cost) led me to believe you werent taking the discussion seriously. which btw it may have been 10 years ago, but thats honestly not an excuse considering the topic and the fact that youre on the internet with plenty of sources of info. again, i was never condescending - just wanted a serious and intelligent discussion. yet you say " you stopped at easy to learn and think you mastered the whole thing." and call me a condescending tw@t. thats cool too, great points.

(Inemia) #500

when are you going to admit that you haven’t played since wrath and you are just upset at change? and in all that time you have missed i have been playing my dk, there’s been more changes than i can even remember at this point. and you’re right, im not taking you seriously, you are more concerned with winning an argument than actually providing the devs useable feedback.


well thanks for letting everyone know youre incapable of holding an engaging discussion. do you always assume youve played more than the person youre disagreeing with every time they prove their point to you? and i have provided tons of useful feedback. the survey was just another form that i wanted to discuss with other intellectual people. and apparently you refuse to be part of that group.

(Inemia) #502

there you go, being condescending again.

no, there’s quite a few DKs i have a great amount of respect for, but i do have close to 10,000 hours of /played on this toon. so im pretty confident i can play as i see fit. im also able to tell when you just don’t understand something.

what have you proven?

you have provided rhetoric and opinion paraded as fact while attempting to call me out for bias, rather hypocritical don’t you think?

is not valid or infallible. how do we know you didn’t send that to a bunch of your friends and have them fill in the answer you want? btw, devs don’t take polls seriously.

/cringe, do you know how you sound right now?

what makes you think i want to be part of your group?


You continue to add nothing to this thread except defensive mocking. I care about the future of this spec which is why I took time to make and share the poll. I would never compromise a poll (especially one that I made wtf). I want to actually provide some useful information to the developers, yet you continue to derail the thread with your horrible attitude. Stop being so closed minded and either have an actual discussion or move on. And yes, the word “intellectual” can be used unironically when you’re mature.

(Inemia) #504

that is entirely the content of your post.

you have given no reason to trust you.

when someone asks you to be open minded that is a red flag that they are about to spew some BS into your ear.

i didn’t know i could /cringeharder.

you really are some piece of work, are you an aspie?


so anyway…

yeah i miss shadow of death. i remember the devs saying it was a mess coding-wise. i also think they didnt like the idea of it being usable in arena considering how different it was at the time. i feel it can come back in todays wow without it being too much of a problem in either category. lets hope one day it does.

(Inemia) #506

it was removed because it was OP in arena, thats when it did work, the rest of the time it was very buggy and caused a lot of issues. it was not uncommon to rez at a GY in a BG as a ghoul meaning you died 30 seconds later.


numbers are the very last thing that any spec needs to worry about in my opinion. the class first and foremost needs to be fun with a rotation that promotes decision making. honestly tho the thing that wins me over more than those two is the class fantasy, but thats another story. there will always be a fotm spec no matter how balanced the game is - thats just the nature of the game - and thats okay. as for pvp, unholy dk is most definitely not a free kill lol not by a long shot. were actually one of the best melee in the game right now in pvp because of how hard we are to kill.

(Fookí) #508

sorry, but i stopped right here. everything is built around the numbers… which is why certain specs or even classes get pushed aside for FotMs. fix the spec’s dps, and you won’t NEED that much class remodeling.